They Say Two Knights is Good For Your Chess But...

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TitanCG

I have read a few times that this is a good opening for club players to get better in the open games but this isn't always the case for me. After 4.Ng5 the game can get complicated and there are rich ideas for both sides. And 4.d3 can lead to classical chess positions. But what about 4.d4? This leads to the exact opposite. After that move I find myself trying to just remember what to do because a wrong move leads to some winning sequence on f7. I don't feel like I'm thinking or creating anything - I'm just trying to get to that point where you get to choose which way to go with the queen which is probably the first "choice" in the game I get. This is followed by more memorization of what to do when this or that piece goes to g5. And then there are crazy lines like the Max Lange which make no sense other than saying "it just works." I avoided open games and the two knights altogether just because of this move. 

Maybe it's equal for Black but it feels like a grind to play.

Any thoughts?

benedictus

I rarely see 4. d4; I wouldn't stop playing an opening because of one line I don't know how to handle. But doesn't it just transpose into a Scotch Gambit, which is quite popular and you should be familiar with anyway?

tmodel66

If one line is giving you trouble, learn how to handle it - that is part of the process.  But, everything you said - about defending f7, and coordinating your queen and pieces - plus more, like sacrifices, opening up lines of attack, controlling diagonals and files, planting knights, the importance of king safety, etc. - is exactly what is meant by the Two Knights helping you learn about open games.

netzach

Two knights super-strong. (if you understand what you're doing with them)

Rare because often one knight gets bumped off early in the game.

spassky

Read my article: http://www.chess.com/article/view/belle-baczynskyj-and-bisguier

It has 3 games with the 4. d4 line of the Two Knight's Defense, as well as some entertaining stories.  It's very instructive! 

TitanCG

The opening isn't troublesome to me at all. It just feels a bit tedious to be forced down rather narrow paths this way. There are lots of different positions after 4.Ng5 and 4.d3 but after 4.d4 I just find myself memorising my way into an even position and feeling pretty jaded when I get there and feeling almost cheated when I forget something. I mean sure understanding is important but a lot of that stuff is just thinking "if I go here he goes there and then I have to go here..."

During the process I don't feel like I'm learning anything other than cheapos that only work in those positions or in games where my opponent is unrealistically behind in development.

Expertise87

4.d4 is kind of a weak move in that it doesn't try for an opening advantage at all. It is well-met by 4...exd4, where there are two major replies for White: 5.O-O, which at least keeps equality and gives Black no real winning chances, and 5.e5, after which I think Black is fully justified in playing for a win.

5.O-O Nxe4 is the easiest path to equality. Now 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6!? (otherwise Bf6 is annoying but here 11.Bf6?! Bxh2+ is good for Black) 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5 (but not 12...Qc5?! after which I have found a way for White to play for a win) is dead equal. Surprisingly, Black outscores White from this position, but realistically it is drawn.

5.O-O Bc5 is also playable albeit complex.



Expertise87

That analysis represents a decent percentage of my knowledge on the 4.d4 variation, after playing it with both sides.

TitanCG

Yes I unfortunately have memorised all this stuff... There is also 7.Nc3 which is unsound but annoying if you forget something.

What I don't get is how I'm supposed to learn anything if my time must be spent memorising this stuff.

zborg

Just keep practicing that opening and you'll go blind from all the tactics.

But many will claim your skill level will rise, so just keep memorizing, and thinking deeply OTB?? 

Instead, consider playing a reverse black system with the white pieces.  You will surely sleep easier at night, and have tons of time on your hands to study other phases of the Royal Game.  As a result of focused study (outside openings), your overall playing strength will surely increase.

On balance, "openings" are largely a matter of personal taste, until you break @USCF 1800-1900 ratings.  But very few listen.  Whatever.

So knock yourself out learning openings 20 moves deep that your opponent can transpose away from easily??

Your choice.  It's a big time commitment, either way.

u335394862

Mom charlie farted! wawawawawa

TitanCG

Don't get me wrong - I really don't want to know everything about the opening. I'm really only using it for the positions after 4.Ng5 and 4.d3. But where can White deviate after 4.d4 without something horrible happening?

Expertise87

White, deviate? Probably Black will get an advantage if White doesn't follow a main line.