Which defenses to the Lopez should a lowbie consider playing?

Ahh, the so-called perennial problem eh? The Ruy is extremely tough to face if you aren't too comfortable with your system, more so than any other black opening that isn't considered outright dubious. White's setup is extremely harmonious, which makes it much easier to use than to counter when you're at the point in the game where you're out of the book.

I believe that what is good for the professionals is not necessarily a smart choice for us when it comes to defenses to the Ruy. Some of the closed variations where you suffer the Spanish Torture for thirty moves before you can break out are alright for GM's who aren't playing moves they haven't memorised until late in the game, but it seems unwise for us to imitate them, and be trying to come up with our own moves while the Torture is still in full swing. It's so bad that the defense "feels" almost dubious. I'm not really into doing that much studying just to survive until I finally get to start some play of my own, and I doubt that many of you are either.

I'm curious to know if anyone has had good experiences with the Closed Ruy here, as a counterpoint to my own experience with it.

The Open looked promising at first, but soon I found that White's kingside piece-play comes very fast. Much faster than your queenside pawn majority can become a threat. In fact, the queenside pawns can be weak sometimes, as is often the case in the Ruy.

In the Lopez, white often gets more space in the center, piece play on the kingside, and even a little pressure on the queenside with the a4 thrust. Advantages straight across the board.

I've tried plenty of defenses, and looked carefully at the theory with knowledge that my opponents will play the correct way the more I get better, so I don't really want to end up with a defense that I start to hate as soon as that happens.

IMO, it is better at club level to use something that gives you counterplay potential before you are out of the book. With many openings you can rely on your club-level novelty to elicit a club-level response and get a reasonable game, but the Ruy is so easy to use that white can follow the standard procedure most of the time, and you find yourself in a desperate spot.

With this in mind, it seems to me that the best defenses for us to use are the Marshal, the Schliemann (Radjabov has made it very playable), the Gajiewski, and the Berlin Wall. Everything else seems to lead to an easy and significant white advantage. Subjective advantage, to be sure, but that does matter.

What do you think? What is your answer to the perennial problem?

I usually use the Marshall's attack and it works pretty well for me. At least, it gives me an interesting game. I know that on top GM level the Marshall's is said to result in draws these days because it has been so extensively analyzed (though even there it doesn't always, eg Leko's win against Kramnik in a championship match) but on this level there will usually be plenty of winning chances. The Berlin Wall does seem to be pretty obviously drawish though and I wouldn't want to try that. Also, I play the normal closed Lopez sometimes when I feel like playing a more positional game and I don't think it is too difficult. Of course, you have to be prepared for the Exchange whether you want it or not.

Well, I'm about the same rating as you, and I've had a lot of success (and fun) with the Schlieman (3... f5)

White seems to have quite a large array of replies, but none are particularly dangerous, and it's fairly easy to learn.

Pstrych9,

I'm the one you just played the Spanish Opening against. I rarely play live chess, but if you want to rematch in turn-based, it would be better for me.  Some friends just got here, so I don't want to be chained to the computer for 20 or 30 minutes. I need a little bit of freedom to talk with them.

Also you might want to look up variations with Bc5.

Btw what is the Gajiewski ?

You could avoid it all together by playing 1...c5.

Well yes but we were talking about the Ruy Lopez. I reckon that both the original poster and the others here are aware that different openings exist. Also it is possible to play pool instead of chess but this is not the current focus.

There are plenty of sub-variations at move 3 which are insteresting, worth studying and which could bring you good success if you specialize in them. I would recommend to investigate the Jaenisch (3...f5), the Classical (3...Bc5 or 3...Nf6 4.0-0 and Bc5), the Cozio (3...Nge7), the Smyslov/Spassky line (3...g6) and the Bird (3...Nd4). Then pick the one you like best. Chances are your Ruy Lopez specialist won't be booked up on these lines...

The problem with the Berlin (3...Nf6) is that it lacks bite and white can choose the type of game he wants (Berlin endgame, attacking middlegame with an early Re1 or "let's just play chess" with 4.d3)

One situation where i would play 3. ... Nf6 is if I know the opponent is going to exchange on c6 anyway so I can save that tempo.

The Marshall is sound and good for a draw at worst and a win at best.

I got to talk to a top GM at the EU Championship last year I asked him why he played the Marshall.

He told me

Anand hates it and it is good for a draw at any level.

Definetely the defence to go for against the Lopez. 

If you hate playing against the ruy so much, you should seriously consider playing another first move as black. It's not theoretically that horrible for black, but when I used to play the black side (because I played ...e5) I felt like I was in the spanish torture as they call it, and that was one of the reasons I stopped playing ...e5.. Just an option though, 3...f5 and 3...Nge7 might not be as easy to play against for the average amateur ruy player. Also the marshall attack is a good option. The closed ruy is quite solid, but you have to face a likely small disadvantage and need a very good positional understanding, more so than if you're white, who's plans are at least a little more straightforward, but by no means simple either. And the open, it seems to be pretty loose but still easier to play as white than black so I personally wouldn't recomend it.

the cozio, it's simple, rarely seen, and even if white plays the best lines against it they will only get a small advantage.

How can people recommend Marshall attack for a beginner? Black must play VERY energetic in order to get that draw. It is also a very theoretical line, with theory going easily up to move 17-20 and any deviation is fatal.

Well but I don't think the question was asked by a beginner, unless I misjudged.

Yes I don't think he's a beginner. Besides, at beginner level the marshall seems at least as easy to play with the black side against an equally inexperienced opponent. But anyway I think this guy is just an intermediate player who's been having problems against the ruy lopez, which is very normal and happened to me.

Yess! That's it! Just play 2...f5!! and go for it!

Only pansies wait for the second move to play ...f5!

Why not play 1. ... f5!! and win comprehensively with the Fred?

Lol that's a good point.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet but the very strong GM Ivan Sokolov came out recently with a book titled "The Ruy Lopez Revisited."

He covers several 'off-beat' but interesting lines for Black: 

 Jaenisch (Schliemann) Gambit, the Delayed Jaenisch, the Cozio Variation, the Smyslov Variation, the Bird Variation and the Classical Variation.

BTW you mentioned the Gajewski and I really like it as well. I played a nice game with it recently and you can check it out in my blog.

The book I use for that (and the only book that covers it as far as I know) is "Attacking the Spanish" which also covers the Schliemann and Marshall.