Why is d4, Nf6, d5 bad for white?

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SH4PESH1FT3R

I was studying a game I just played where I tried d5, which I almost never do, and I noticed that stockfish 15.1 nneu prefers black almost immediately. Why is that? Is the d pawn just over extrended? It feels like it wins space that is hard to get back as balck. I usually play QG, so d5 is something I'd consider, if I could understand its weakness. 
P/S: I know this game wasn't that good. I laughed at myself at the end.

sidespaghetti
It’s bad because of the line 2…e6 3.c4 exd5 4.cxd5 Bb4+ 5.Nc3 O-O and black is ahead in development. The alternative is to simply lose a pawn.

Either you lose a pawn for no reason or lose the initiative. Neither is good for white, hence why d5 is a bad move
sidespaghetti
Also 3.dxe6 is still losing because black still manages to get ahead in development. Playing d5 at best loses white a tempo.
darkunorthodox88
sidespaghetti wrote:
Also 3.dxe6 is still losing because black still manages to get ahead in development. Playing d5 at best loses white a tempo.

its hardly "losing" it just doesnt accomplish much

PatientMineField

D5 is a slight waste of time. Which is very important for the beginning of the game. You normally dont want to move your pieces, knights or bishops, twice in the opening for the same reason. Loss of time. Black can challenge you with e6 or even allow u the extra space as it is only temporary. Its a bit harder to defend your pawn now, and you could have easily had another piece into the game, or taken more of the center by now.

AngryPuffer

these are the following lines that look natural to me

black just seems ahead in development and space

joeyby21
these are lots of help thanks
dpnorman

I think the main thing is it doesn't make sense. I don't see white's pawn on d5 as being really any better than on d4. Actually, it may be worse, because it's more easily undermined (i.e. c6/e6). If the pawn is on d4, the e5 break is difficult to achieve for a bit, and the c5 break while possible *then* encourages d5 (since after having played c5, black can't now use the c6-break, as black might if white were to play d5 unprovoked).

On first glance, my intuition would be to consider either c6 or e6 (or both, in quick succession) as black and I find it hard to believe that white will really be able to maintain the center in the long run.

But also, there are just so many more useful moves. Nf3, c4, g3, Bf4/g5, even Nc3

JamesColeman

…c6 in particular looks problematic as it’s quite easy to envisage white even dropping the pawn with …qa5+ at some point, and clearly playing dxc6 is horrible for white.

I’m sure …e6 is also a good move as well.

MaetsNori

Others above me have already explained this well.

I'll just clarify about square control: one of the things that the pawn on d4 accomplishes is contesting control of the valuable e5 square - one of Black's two central squares. In Classical chess theory, the e-pawn "wants" to reach the e5 square, if it can.

So the d4-pawn does a great job of making this goal more difficult for Black.

But advancing the d-pawn a second time relinquishes control of the e5 square, and instead contests the e6 square - which is not nearly as important to Black, because Black already controls that square twice, with his e and f pawns:

So White's d-pawn moved from being well placed, and contesting a valuable central square - to advancing forward and contesting a less valuable square, which is already twice-controlled by Black.

Worse yet, a White pawn on d5 now gives Black a perfect way to develop: by attacking the pawn itself.

Here's a sample line, just to get a better idea:

In this example, Black played by simply attacking the d-pawn (and threatening its support).

We can see that Black has managed to place his e-pawn to the e5 square after all, uncontested (which the d-pawn once guarded, back when it was still on d4).

Black has gotten the easier game, with more open development. White, meanwhile, seems to be playing defense more than offense, and will have to work to untangle his position.

(It's interesting how just a single pawn move can change the whole trajectory of a game ...)

PatientMineField

It is quite interesting that a pawn move, on move two, can be discussed this in-depth with so much nuance. The beauty of chess!

pleewo

Basically what iron steam said

SH4PESH1FT3R
IronSteam1 wrote:
 

But advancing the d-pawn a second time relinquishes control of the e5 square, and instead contests the e6 square - which is not nearly as important to Black, because Black already controls that square twice, with his e and f pawn.

So I wonder here, if d5 doesn't prevent e5 because of en passant? is it not stable enough to guarantee an en passant?

SH4PESH1FT3R

Just wanna thank everybody for all of this information! You've given me a lot to chew on lol.

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