Why is the Grunfeld in such heathy theoretical shape

I have heard many times by now that the grunfeld enjoys an exelent theoratical repurtation. GM's now even tend to go for one game ideas. 

It is not necesairly my question why it has gotten this reputation but rather if it is correct. (wich actually questions that as well I just realised)

I know of four lines currently were black seems to struggle for the equality that he, according to the openings reputation,he is supposed to get evrywere. 

1. 3.f3 Gelfand got a difficult position in his match with Anand and white looks objectively better while his positon is also easier to play

2. The russian system. Most of black's set-ups have problems and his best option leads straight to a worse position.

3. Modern exchange with Rb1.The Pawn grab which presumeably burried the variation seems to give white storng compensation in both the long and short term with the move Re1 preparing Nd4/Bd4 by protecting the e2 bishop.this is better than the greedy Lc5 

4. Modern exchange Nf3+Be3. Generally endgames are slightly worse unless black plays a specific move order. but after Rb1 provoking a6. the weakening of black's position leads to a white edge and avoiding it doesn't help either. The line with 0-0 and Rd8 always seemed ok to me . But I have heard that some new analysis suggested that the queen sacrafice is much more promising than previously tought.

I wonder if I am missing something. If so please post some lines wich do live up to the reputation of the Grundfeld. Because what is known as the main lines doesn't seems equal to me let alone promising.

If not we can get this false evaluation out of this world and show that white has promising play in more than one line.

All contribution in appreciated. 

White's most promising line against the Grunfeld is the modern exchange with Nf3 and Rb1, and black is able to achieve equality even against that.  To put it quite simply, the Grunfeld is doing very well and is here to stay.

the problem of the Bc4+Ne2 and the Nf3+Rb1 lines is that there is too much theory and black has 10 good variations against each system so it's not a pragmatic choice.

the Be3 variation is a good weapon since black has to prove he can draw the endgame, kramnik is a destroyer in this line (Kramnik-Svidler candidates 2013 1-0, Kramnik-Caruana Dortmund 2013 1-0, Kramnik-Areschenko world cup 2013 1-0, Kramnik-Svidler russian superfinal 2013 1/2-1/2) because he's able to press with a microscopical edge.

the f3 grunfeld is a new line, still unexplored , so i don't know what to think.

i don't know about the recent developments in the russian system (i like 7...Nc6)

the g3 variation can't be underestimated since gelfand used it to win the right to play in a world championship

something has to be said about the Bd2 variation (5.Bd2 Nb6 6.e3 Bg7 7.f4 !?) and the Bf4 variation (ivanchuk had an edge against carlsen with this).

It is overanalysed. If you spend all this time with the schrink, you cannot be healthy :-)

I don't know how 'new' 3.f3 is; I used to play that myself 15-20 years ago.  It was considered an anti-Grunfeld line, trying to force a transposition to the King's Indian Samisch variation.  I don't think the Samisch is considered particularly dangerous for Black these days, so if you're a top-level GM where this flavor really matters, that's probably your best bet for dealing with it.

Be3 seems very anoying for black to me. He will have to defend a slightly worse endgame in which white has all the prospects and all the chances. Black just doesn't have any active counter play. And when a player whith great technique makes use of it it is very dangerous for black. Not to forget that most black players that play an active counter attacking defense don't like this type of position.

I don't think Rb1 is white's most promising move but it still has some point. White gets good compensation and can play on with the Re1+Ba6 idea but I think that black should be fine in the Nc6 line but somehow white's prospects in this very complicated position seem somewhat better to me.

I agree on f3 being unexplored but the development of the line is currently in white's favour.

against g3 black can choose between a very solid system with c6 and d5. which gives white problems proving anything because evrything is symethrical. He might also try a typical grundfeld with d5 which of course gives chances to both sides.

The only reason I think black has problems in the Russian system is because Nc6 suffered quite a blow. And all other moves don't seem to equalise

from a theoratical point of view Bc4 is almost a joke. black has like 6 or more  (solid lines with e6 have been tried quite a bit recently)  sound ways to equality. generally black gets a typical blockade on the center when evrything is set on who will get in f4/f5 if white doesn't play f4 he will ussually end up in a worse middlegame after f5 by black. While the other way around this is not true. black can ignore f4 and try to counter it at the right time with f5 or play f6 when it is up to white how to continue on the kingside when black either searches for counterplay elsewhere or he play f5 at the right time.

I just continue to get the feeling that I'm missing something and that I scared away from the Grundfeld for no reason at all :(. hapilly I play 1.d4 so I can give the pain to them when they play it.

I wonder if one of you guys has some analysis on some line that I missed. 

in the Rb1 line, 13.Be3 and 13.Bg5 h6 14.Bh4 are also interesting.

16.Bg2 !? in your line (russian system) is not in avrukh's update and the computer gives a slight advantage for white, maybe black has to find a new path. I think that 7...a6 is also better for white but I don't know about 7...Na6 or the old main line 7...Bg4.

the "very solid system" against the g3 variation suffered in Kramnik-Gelfand candidates 2013.

black can avoid the endgame in the Be3 variation

indeed chessam. He can avoid it (actually the current trend because slightly worse endgames don't attract many people when there are alternatives). 

I just realised I sometimes substiduded B for L and R for T. darn language diffrences. 

now I understand why svidler never replayed it. your variation (after 22.Ke2) scores highly at gm level (see the crushing game Leko-Topalov 2011). then svidler tried the endgame, but kramnik comes with another novelty Kc2. will kramnik force gms to give up the grunfeld as he forced them to give up the king's indian main line ?

first of all Thx. I can't get a decent database on a mac so I didn't even know that this line was so crushing even at the highest level.

by the way I knew of Kc2 before it was played by kramnik (when I looked at the Endgame with Nc6 it seemed a intresting alternative to Ke1). Still I think black should be ok. Just because this is the best verion of this endgame he is ever going to get. If this line is better for white then the Grunfeld would suddenly lead to a worse endgame straight out of the opening no matter what black does. Also don't forget that if you play a move order without a quick Rc1, Rb1 seems much more promising (the Lg4 line i briefly mentioned just doesn't convince me at all.)   

The kramnik thing is actually quite true. Oh the Irony. Kramnik takes Kasparov's title and than proceeds to destroy all of his favorite openings against 1.d4. In general  Kramnik's opening choises destroy all counterplay and aim to make black suffer. I am quite happy that he isn't some notorious slav destroyer :) .

Just wondering do you play the Grunfeld. And if so what are your results. I was intrested in picking it up last summer but the deeper I duck the more problems I found. somehow the opening was not what is said on the tin. 

no I don't play the grunfeld with black. I play the nimzo-indian and the queen's indian. with white my choice against the grunfeld was never stable. I had disastrous results with Nf3+Rb1 (I often faced the line 8.Rb1 0-0 9.Be2 b6) and mixed results with the Bc4 variation. I understood that this was not a pragmatic choice.

I tried the Bd2 line against an IM and he offered me a draw in a difficult position. Now I play only 1.Nf3 with the andersson endgame

I am currently playing an Email game with a Russian Candidate Master,... I hate my Black Grünfeld position.

But I am no opening Guru,... and really had NO business going in for this amazing complicated and strategically rich opening.  It seems that white just has so many different ways to annoy Black.  

I like Space & Large Pawn Centres.  The board is limited so giving away the Centre is not my idea of good chess.  

the Grünfeld is wonderful, IF you are a professional

the Sicilian is wonderful, IF you are a professional

As I have posted more than once I am a HACK,...

It is a GREAT opening though,... 

I wish I was good enough to play it

How deeply do you need to memorize the Grunfeld main lines as Black?  I heard the Grunfeld can be up to 30 moves deep in theory for some lines.  True?

I wouldn't say that you need the MOMORIZE the grundfeld. you rather need to understand. 

 The exchange variation pawnstructure is something you need to understand. black's ideas between white choices vary a lot but when you look at some games I think you will get the general themes. (I would recommend b6 against the Rb1 line because it gives both sides a chance just to play chess (I think white should have some edge but it isn't that easy). Usually if your opponent knows what he is doing you won't destroy his center by move 10 . the whole fighting against the past d-pawn is difficult to master so again you should study some games.  

the there is the g3 variation which seems ok for black to me (I would say you play the typical Grunfeld d5!)

There are the symetrical structures arising from Bf4 lines. black should be ok and might even have some chances because he can get his e pawn to e5 to get some space. and/or coordinate pieces on the d3 square with say Bf5-Nb4-Ne5(after e4 or without e5.). also in this structure when you play e5 you can play a later f6 and get you bishop to the f8-a3 diagonal reactivating it while the g3/h2 bishop is biting on you pawn chain.

There is the Bg5 line after which I would suggest you study svidler's Bg7 ignoring the tread when black seems to get enough play to level the game. The normal Ne4-Bh4 Nxc3-Bxc3-dxc4 e3-Be6(actually forced) white gets long term compensation and black is difficult to play.

other lines shouldn't be to much of a problem. In the Grundfeld you will have to combine theoratical knowledge with great strategic understanding (it is much more complex than say a kid because white can determine which pawn-structure you are going to play). I will stop ranting here and put in some non exchange lines as an example.

I would say you give it a try. I shyd away from it because i don't like it when I play some sharp heavy theory opening and don't even get equality in some complex positions . Oh btw I found some way out in Avrukh's line

Great opening,... too much work for me.

Interesting.  Thanks, EnemyGenerator, for the analysis.

that's an interesting point. I don't know how true it is tough because the Grunfeld is somewhat of a fashion trend at the highest level. If the trend chances they might just drop it (like the semi-slav was the big thing some time ago). Tough I have to agree that I tend to overanalyse stuff quite a bit 

Irony?  Who said something that was the opposite of what they really meant?  Kasparov's 2...g6 defenses were never invincible.

I'm supposing you got the Grunfeld in a bootlegged counterfeit tin.  No worries.  Play the Grunfeld.  You might accidentally checkmate someone.

I remember at a tournament a few years ago where Kramnik had just won a game against the Grunfeld, I can't remember who he was playing.  In the interview afterwards they asked him about the opening and he just smiled and said, "I don't know why people keep playing it against me!". 

Of course, the fact that an opening doesn't work against Kramnik may not be a good indicator of its quality.  However, I am sure that the Ruy Lopez is refuted since everytime I play it against Houdini 3 I lose.

the grunfeld became the main choice against d4 at gm level. remember the candidates in kazan, when the grunfeld did so well, except in the last gelfand-grischuk game. remember kramnik playing reti/english against grischuk just to avoid this opening.