Online Chess Titles?

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mvonkeit

Does it seem at all feasible to introduce online chess titles in the vein of, for example, the National Master title? 

It seems to me that plenty of reasonably talented players have been introduced to the game online, evidence the skill of an OTB Master, have not (and may never) play OTB, and yet arguably deserve recognition that neither FIDE nor any National Federation I am aware of would afford them. The Arena Grandmaster (AGM) title, for example, is well below the National Master or (FIDE) Candidate Master Standard.

Surely the environment now exists in which players can be afforded online alternatives to traditional OTB titles without sacrificing credibility.

Vertwitch
Hope not because online chess is cheating online chess
mvonkeit

Cheating exists OTB as well. I would imagine a platform like chess.com would not award a hypothetical title without scrutiny, including screening for fair play.

Vertwitch
Too many “pros” cheat, we can’t have it because of them


It is a real pity
MapleDanish

I'd imagine the number of individuals who are master strength without ever playing in an OTB tournament has to be incredibly low. 

mvonkeit

Maybe, but I am uncertain. There was a player in the 2022 Canadian Open who had only ever played online and performed at a Master level. If you have a steady diet of OTB masters on a platform like chess.com, surely it is conceivable you pick up enough to rise to that level. In any event, this hypothetical online title would not preclude those who also play OTB. You could have those who moved away from OTB play. For example, an OTB Expert who steps away from OTB play and rises to Master level online (which, subject to screening, doesn't seem like an outlandish possibility).

MapleDanish

That's a good point. It wouldn't be overly difficult to implement an online title system here on chess.com: 

- Set a minimum, non provisional rating to achieve that would result in a title.

- Set a minimum number of total games required by an account, which encourages activity on chess.com and also makes cheating more time consuming.

- When a player achieves the required rating in a certain number of time controls (perhaps 3, such as bullet, blitz, and rapid), enable a button that allows the player to request the title from chess.com.

- This triggers an automatic fair play review of the user requesting a title.

- Once approved, a user would have the option of displaying a "Chess.com master" badge in the same location where the current titles are shown. 

- The color of this badge should be different, while the shape and size should be the same.

 

I'd generally be opposed to titles based on specific time controls. I'd rather a player be forced to play well at multiple time controls to achieve a title.

WilliamJohnB
MapleDanish wrote:

That's a good point. It wouldn't be overly difficult to implement an online title system here on chess.com: 

- Set a minimum, non provisional rating to achieve that would result in a title.

- Set a minimum number of total games required by an account, which encourages activity on chess.com and also makes cheating more time consuming.

- When a player achieves the required rating in a certain number of time controls (perhaps 3, such as bullet, blitz, and rapid), enable a button that allows the player to request the title from chess.com.

- This triggers an automatic fair play review of the user requesting a title.

- Once approved, a user would have the option of displaying a "Chess.com master" badge in the same location where the current titles are shown. 

- The color of this badge should be different, while the shape and size should be the same.

 

I'd generally be opposed to titles based on specific time controls. I'd rather a player be forced to play well at multiple time controls to achieve a title.

This is pretty much my situation.  Even though I am only a norms-based USCF Candidate Master OTB,  I have peak ratings of well over 2200 in all 3 specified variants (bullet, blitz, rapid) on here (chess.com) where I have played hundreds (if not thousands) of games on each of the three variants without cheating.

UpcommingGM

It sounds great.

CUL8RS

Damn

ejkilroy
MapleDanish wrote:

I'd imagine the number of individuals who are master strength without ever playing in an OTB tournament has to be incredibly low. 

I think @CUL8RS should get a title

mvonkeit
MapleDanish wrote:

That's a good point. It wouldn't be overly difficult to implement an online title system here on chess.com: 

- Set a minimum, non provisional rating to achieve that would result in a title.

- Set a minimum number of total games required by an account, which encourages activity on chess.com and also makes cheating more time consuming.

- When a player achieves the required rating in a certain number of time controls (perhaps 3, such as bullet, blitz, and rapid), enable a button that allows the player to request the title from chess.com.

- This triggers an automatic fair play review of the user requesting a title.

- Once approved, a user would have the option of displaying a "Chess.com master" badge in the same location where the current titles are shown. 

- The color of this badge should be different, while the shape and size should be the same.

 

I'd generally be opposed to titles based on specific time controls. I'd rather a player be forced to play well at multiple time controls to achieve a title.

Minimum number of games at which you maintain the threshold rating, which would be equivalent to the minimum total number of games required?

OTB, the NM title tends to be at the 98th percentile. The 98th percentile on chess.com is roughly 1800. That said, there are a disproportionate number of absolute beginners on chess.com in comparison to OTB events. Regardless, maybe the threshold doesn't need to be as high as 2200.

What if those interested in the title(s) are required to play games at standard time controls on chess.com? That can be introduced as another option, beyond rapid games.

The rest sounds right - apply, get screened, and get an icon/badge.

WilliamJohnB
mvonkeit wrote:
MapleDanish wrote:

That's a good point. It wouldn't be overly difficult to implement an online title system here on chess.com: 

- Set a minimum, non provisional rating to achieve that would result in a title.

- Set a minimum number of total games required by an account, which encourages activity on chess.com and also makes cheating more time consuming.

- When a player achieves the required rating in a certain number of time controls (perhaps 3, such as bullet, blitz, and rapid), enable a button that allows the player to request the title from chess.com.

- This triggers an automatic fair play review of the user requesting a title.

- Once approved, a user would have the option of displaying a "Chess.com master" badge in the same location where the current titles are shown. 

- The color of this badge should be different, while the shape and size should be the same.

 

I'd generally be opposed to titles based on specific time controls. I'd rather a player be forced to play well at multiple time controls to achieve a title.

Minimum number of games at which you maintain the threshold rating, which would be equivalent to the minimum total number of games required?

OTB, the NM title tends to be at the 98th percentile. The 98th percentile on chess.com is roughly 1800. That said, there are a disproportionate number of absolute beginners on chess.com in comparison to OTB events. Regardless, maybe the threshold doesn't need to be as high as 2200.

What if those interested in the title(s) are required to play games at standard time controls on chess.com? That can be introduced as another option, beyond rapid games.

The rest sounds right - apply, get screened, and get an icon/badge.

 

I still think the rating threshold should be at least 2200 (rather than 1800) for all three variants or else too many people who are nowhere near master-strength (online and/or OTB) would be eligible for the Chess.com Master badge.

Also, I would guess by standard time controls, you are referring to games no faster than G/30, right?

drewcrispen

indeed

mvonkeit

 

I still think the rating threshold should be at least 2200 (rather than 1800) for all three variants or else too many people who are nowhere near master-strength (online and/or OTB) would be eligible for the Chess.com Master badge.

Also, I would guess by standard time controls, you are referring to games no faster than G/30, right?

It may be that any threshold U2200 is too low, but I don’t know the stats on the chess.com ratings of verified OTB masters. I know I have seen the odd NM that is U1800 in rapid.

I was thinking standard time control being a minimum of 2 hours a side, whether sudden death or subject to an increment (in which case the formula would be: core time + 60*increment >= 120 mins). That way, you keep it consistent with OTB standards. The advantage is that you can get your games in when convenient for you - you don’t need to set aside a weekend or more, including travel, to play a series of games during fixed dates and times at fixed locations.

With the ongoing popularization of quicker time controls, maybe it makes sense to diverge from OTB standards and make the minimum time control 30 minutes a side.

WilliamJohnB
mvonkeit wrote:

 

I still think the rating threshold should be at least 2200 (rather than 1800) for all three variants or else too many people who are nowhere near master-strength (online and/or OTB) would be eligible for the Chess.com Master badge.

Also, I would guess by standard time controls, you are referring to games no faster than G/30, right?

It may be that any threshold U2200 is too low, but I don’t know the stats on the chess.com ratings of verified OTB masters. I know I have seen the odd NM that is U1800 in rapid.

I was thinking standard time control being a minimum of 2 hours a side, whether sudden death or subject to an increment (in which case the formula would be: core time + 60*increment >= 120 mins). That way, you keep it consistent with OTB standards. The advantage is that you can get your games in when convenient for you - you don’t need to set aside a weekend or more, including travel, to play a series of games during fixed dates and times at fixed locations.

With the ongoing popularization of quicker time controls, maybe it makes sense to diverge from OTB standards and make the minimum time control 30 minutes a side.

 

In response to your first paragraph, there is a Reddit post from 7-8 months ago that analyzed distribution of Chess.com blitz ratings for each different OTB title (NM, CM, FM, IM, GM) at (2) I analyzed Chess.com blitz rating distribution for different titles : chess (reddit.com).   Essentially, it seems that the median Chess.com rating of people with OTB CM and NM titles lies somewhere in the mid-2300s.

In response to your second and third paragraphs, I think it would be best to go with the minimum of G/30 over G/120 as I cannot think of too many people who want to play an online chess game where the time control for both sides is at least 2 hours.

mvonkeit

Is there a similar analysis for chess.com rapid (and bullet) ratings?

WilliamJohnB
mvonkeit wrote:

Is there a similar analysis for chess.com rapid (and bullet) ratings?

Unfortunately, I don't think such an analysis has been done for Rapid (and bullet) ratings.  However, I could try to whip some sort of analysis for players who have OTB titles and have Chess.com Rapid ratings of at least 2000 if I have enough spare time.

jetoba

The OP already mentioned FIDE's Arena titles

https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B11FOATitlesForLowerRatingBand

and there is an old thread on that.

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/fide-onlne-arena-titles---are-they-worth-spending-money-on

 

WilliamJohnB

Yes, I remember making that thread years ago.  However, the online chess titles that we are trying to get Chess.com to implement will have substantially higher standards than the FOA ones and one doesn't have to pay any money to get.