Player trying to win on time in a dead draw position

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JayprakashKA

How do you force a draw in blitz game when the position is dead draw?

I was in a blitz game where both the players were left with one rook on board. No pawns and no other pieces other than the King and rook on each side. Now this is a dead-draw position and I should have been able to force a draw as per rules of tournament chess. 

However my opponent kept playing because he had more time on clock. He declined my offer for draw. This was not fair. In any tournament, I would have invoked moderator intervention and forced a draw. How can I do that on Chess.com?

JayprakashKA

As per FIDE rules, a player cannot try to win on time when the position is dead-draw. That's not the game of chess.

Dietmar

I understand your position but per FIDE rules the position is not dead-drawn. It has little do to with chess but the likelihood of a blunder still exist. So your only chance is to reach 50 moves in order to claim a draw. It is tough but there isn't a good solution for it aside from hoping that your opponent was taught the spirit of the game.

Joseph-S
JayprakashKA wrote:

How do you force a draw in blitz game when the position is dead draw?

I was in a blitz game where both the players were left with one rook on board. No pawns and no other pieces other than the King and rook on each side. Now this is a dead-draw position and I should have been able to force a draw as per rules of tournament chess. 

However my opponent kept playing because he had more time on clock. He declined my offer for draw. This was not fair. In any tournament, I would have invoked moderator intervention and forced a draw. How can I do that on Chess.com?


 Seriously, how many baby-sitters, I mean moderators do you think C.c. can afford to hire?  May I suggest just tacking on 2 seconds per move.  Problem solved.

Joseph-S

King vs King, now that's a draw that don't get any deadier.

Dietmar

You may recall this dispute between Socko-Foisor in a K + Knight against K + Knight endgame. Foisor lost on time, the arbiter ruled it a draw but Socko appealled ... and won:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4893

Joseph-S
Dietmar wrote:

You may recall this dispute between Socko-Foisor in a K + Knight against K + Knight endgame. Foisor lost on time, the arbiter ruled it a draw but Socko appealled ... and won:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4893


 At a tournament is one thing, but do you really think there could be enough moderators at a site like this to handle all of these little nit-picky disputes?

Dietmar

Of course not, but the point of my example was that even with arbiter/moderator is still would not have been declared a draw ...

Joseph-S
Dietmar wrote:

Of course not, but the point of my example was that even with arbiter/moderator is still would not have been declared a draw ...


  I should have read that more carefully.

Dragec
FIDE 5.2b defines "dead position" as position when neither player can't possibly checkmate. K+R vs. K+R is obviously not a dead draw, it's a book draw.
woton

Under FIDE Article 10.2b, a player may request ajudication before the flag falls and the arbiter shall declare a draw if "...it is not possible to win by normal means...," i.e., a forced checkmate is unlikely.  Under current FIDE Blitz rules, 10.2b can be invoked if "there is adequate supervision," i.e., an arbiter is observing the game.  (Non-blitz games do not require "adequate supervision")

In the Socko-Foisor game, the flag had fallen and the arbiter declared a draw because checkmate could not be forced.  Under FIDE Article 6.9, which was the applicable rule, the game is drawn only if "...the opponent cannot checkmate the player's king by any possible series of legal moves..." (Forced checkmate is not a requirement).  The arbiter's ruling was wrong, and was overturned.

Dietmar

That unfortunately is the case and that's why increments are now part of the game. It used to be different in the pre-increment area when you went to the arbiter and claimed that your opponent does not make any winning attempts. The arbiter would then come to the board and observe the game. If either the player short on time could show he knows how to draw the game (e.g. by moving his king into the corner in a king versus king + h-pawn + wrong color bishop) or the opponent made no winning efforts then he could declare a draw.) I am not sure what the USCF rules are, more knowledgeable people would need to chime in.

At any rate, none of this would impact anything on Chess.com. There is no way we have on-site moderators watching the games and declaring a draw because there are nil winning chances. I mean where do you draw the line? Bullet chess? 3 0? 5 0? 10 0?

woton

The USCF requires adjudication before the flag drops.  However, its rules do not require "adequate supervision."

Also, the USCF rule is not applicable if a clock with a time delay is being used.

Dragec

Time is important, but the board is more important.

FIDE probably wanted to avoid funny situations like we discuss every day here on chess.com, so blitz is played with increment. Case closed.

Something for chess.com to consider?

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=130&view=article

 

8. Time Control
  8.1.
For all competitions each player will have 3 minutes plus 2 seconds per move, starting from move one (G 3’+2”).
gc_closed

Just joined the site and after the third game, I've lost on time. The last 30 moves were just king movements on each side.

EndgameEnthusiast2357

chess.com should have a "dead positon detector that knows when a positon is drawn even with sufficient material.

 

In a sense, dead positions ARE insufficient mating material.

lfPatriotGames

It seems to me that you could do the exact same thing to him, so doesn't that make it fair? There is no advantage for either person. I think the issue is he does it, and you dont, therefore you view it as unfair even though the opportunity exists equally for everyone. Whenever this happens to me I just start playing much slower looking for a possible win which is almost always a loss on time. Obviously the win is much, much more important to the opponent than it is to me. The rules allow him to win on time even though it's probably a draw which is ok with me. I could do the same thing if I wanted to.

Jenium

1. You can play 50 moves and click the draw button.

2. In an OTB-tournament (if there is no increment) you could stop the clock and claim a draw according to FIIDE-rule 10.2. (Although I am not sure whether this rule applies to Blitz. Does anyone know?)

EndgameEnthusiast2357

What does it matter if it's blitz or not. If the position is DRAWN, the games over.

Jenium

The game is over when the score is written in the (virtual) scoreboard.