[Real issue] Rating system is BROKEN + Psychological background

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1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee

Hey sup.

This is not a complaining topic and only thing i want is to bring this as public subject for a discussion because looks like nowadays it is kinda shadowed by the codex of silence while it is actually an issue.

Statement you may find nonsensical at first look: rating 1100-1500 has no actual player skill difference. But at the end i hope you'll recall your games and observe this as clear as me.

Lets start from a little sidestep. With basic sufficient observation, you might notice that there are basically 2 major types of chess players:

1 - Ones that want their win ASAP and selectively pick abusive strategies where you can just farm your points without actually learning, enjoying and even playing the game.

2 - Ones that enjoy game itself and getting better in it as a whole, trying to play strategically and enjoy complex mates in the middle of the board and combinations.

Second ones are cool. Be as them. But first ones are the subject of the post.

Lets have a look at 2 examples. They are a bit exterme, though point is they should not be viewed as some rarity picks from a whole spectre of played games, but are a top-end variations of expressions of some kind of habit.

Example #1

Guy just mindlessly forces an excanges to get the lucky pawn at the end. I meet such kind of players in like 15% of the games. Please leave a comment naming your rate of meeting those guys, it would be cool to compare and build a statistics.

But icing on the cake is... he doesn't know how to mate with a rook. If this game would be posted to "guess the elo" - NOONE will get the rating.

Its.. almost 1500.

Example #2

How many games do you have when fried liver or reversed fried liver is played? Mine is close to 60%. And like 40% of them are made with intention of Qh5. Straight up Qh5 is like 15% of all my games aswell.

Sometimes i just cannot believe my eyes that at my rating people dare to think about opponents as a material for abuse of that 1100 rating trash strategies.

I always target for positional play and middle to long term game plan. And i expect opponents on my rating to be the same because how would they get to that rating otherwise?

Guy just resings when fried liver is impossible.

Answer is simple. They just bruteforce an abuses.

Fried liver and Qh5 abuses are simple but imply precise defence from an opponent so they just mathematically win by amount of games they play this. Losses are not the issue because for 1 loss they get 2 wins on opponent's occasional mistakes.

Another examples. They are not a practical games but mentioning few another patterns in habit.

1 - Sending stupid emojis it chat in the postion of power, when opponent loses a piece or making some else mistake.

2 - Daring to troll opponent when he refuses to resign. Making 8 queens or horeses or whatever.

3 - Stalling clock when opponent counteracts abusive strategy and is about to win in normal manner.

I hope it its not necessary to elaborate why these 3 cases are bad in particular. About second one there even already is a thread where topicstarter proves himself as blind and narcisstic piece of crap for 800+ comments.

Thing is these cases are united with one thing. Such habit is a direct narcissism that targets bumping self-esteem by maximal humiliation of the opponent. You get fun not from the match, but from abusing a person.

And, coincidentially (not really, it is a straight up follow-up), all of them are from the type 1 of the player types i've mentioned in the beginnig.

Conclusion. Chess youtubers teach players some openings and all. Players at 600-900 rank are actually trying to follow them. But they are delusioned because it does not give them a thing. Rating system is broken by abusers in its origin.

I have 2 solutions. First one is to hide rating points, diversify gains like if is a calibration, and show numbers only for players above 1600. It is the point where strategies start to mean something. Senond one is a bit esoteric but.. just remove Q from the game till 1600. All abuses that work involve queen. Delete it till the point where it is proved that players can and want to play chess not do abuses and personal attacks. Q piece provides clear greenhouse environment for narcisstic and other abusive habit.

exceptionalfork

There are many issues here, so I'll try to cover them all.

1st: 1100-1500 definitely has a skill difference. I compared my stats to people 400 points lower than me to people to 400 points higher than me. My wins against people 400 points lower than me were much in favor of me. My wins against people 400 points higher than me were basically nonexistent.

2nd: I don't know if you're trying to imply that trying to win is abusive, but I feel like anyone that thinks about what you wrote will understand that it makes no sense. If people traded into a winning endgame then they used a better strategy than their opponent. That's not abusive.

3rd: no matter how weird you think it is that the guy in the first game didn't know the Rook + King vs King mate, he is clearly playing legitimately, and it only takes a brief look at his account to see that.

4th: sure, the fried liver is not good. But it is, again, not abusive.

5th: you can report people that are rude in chat, or troll by promoting to a bunch of queens unnecessarily. You do not need to make a forum about it.

6th: the person who made the forum you linked is a troll.  He is trying to annoy people like you who will buy into it.

7th: if you make a poll with 200 about whether taking away the queen from the game for -1600 players is a good idea, you will get 0 votes for that, assuming they all answer with their serious response. A queen is part of the game and if you can't handle losing to it then chess is not for you.

 

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee

Oh okay.

1st: I doubt you can speak of 1100-1500 play being 2k on your own, its a nutcracking for you at both extremums. Above i would say 1600 of course everything works as it shoud so you aren't counterarguing it really. But well i can agree that some slight difference in the subject exists but it is all about only a matter of natural attention to obvious blunders, nothing more.

2nd: I did not imply that. Trying to win is the point of the game and this is not the question. Question is a particular way of achieving it. It is either good or abusive. If someone consciously traded into a winning endgame then they of course used a better strategy. But if they just exchange everything on first sight in non-calculational hope of getting a lucky advantage - that is abusive.

3rd: Well in this example play is quite acceptable, though after the opening he started forcing exchanges without any plan and that should be obvious for you, because you can clearly observe that they are not leading to anything and just happened to be winning only because of my mistakes not because they are good, they are weak and not targeted for advantage technically and you know it. And, by the way, I made my mistakes being emotionally triggered by such habit.

4th: it is not abusive on ~1100-1200 and below where people try to hop into the game as beginners. On 1400-1600 it is clearly an offensive nonsence with intention to bruteforce wins. Again, you don't observe intentions here and speak about pure technics. But issue is exactly in intention that happens to be rating manipulation. If you take 1500 fried liver or Qh5 abuser and 1200 legit player and make them playing each other something that does not involve e4 kf3 bf4 or e4 qh5 - 1500 abuser will lose in no time or straight up give up. This is the subject of discussion.

5th: it is not about me, i can handle that. Thing is, muting chat is nothing more than coping in general. People can talk, people must talk to gather experience by the nature of life, and it is normal. Avoiding chat is not normal. Avoiding chat is a situational measure to escape things like that for those who cannot handle that. And the fact that you generalize it that way means coping is accepted as a solution while it is not because it restricts development and causes social atomization. If you think that troll will stop being troll without a reply, i have bad news. Reasons they do this is not a momentary conscious decision but a complex of personality aspects and how did they came to current state, meaning he has background agenda triggered by the weakness of a target and it mostly happens unconsciously, on a reflex. If you do not act as that trigger, something or someone else will unrelated.

6th: I am not linking to person but to the issue. That subject and controversy about it exists and you cannot neglect it, that topic i've linked to is just a public example. In fact, in ~50% of the games where i do not resign in lost position, i get such kind of trolling in return. It means it is socailly legitimized when it is cleary a bad sport and narcisstic abuse. Again, my experiense is only an example and i am not talking about my personal issues with someone. This thing exists and it is quite outrageous to decline its existence. Therefore, it must be discussed and condemned as much as possible.

7th: Not to mention that this solution was partially fun rather than serious, my serious response to such critics is that amount of people sharing same opinion no way proves anything naturally right or wrong. But i don't get what made you putting last sentence here. I am completely fine playing with or without q, but not when almost every freaking game involves it in first 5-7 moves on given rating. I believe that you don't face this too often at your heights, but here it enables clear greenhouse environment for abusive practices. Just imagine how people will learn to play and enjoy game with other pieces and be natually involved in calculating combinations instead of nom nom nom crap.

David
1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee wrote:

Hey sup.

This is not a complaining topic

(Proceeds to complain for 90% of his post)

Different people enjoy different things about the game - don’t like it? Join or create a private club of like minded people and play with them. 

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee
David wrote:
1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee wrote:

Hey sup.

This is not a complaining topic

(Proceeds to complain for 90% of his post)

Different people enjoy different things about the game - don’t like it? Join or create a private club of like minded people and play with them. 

What are the complaints exactly here? If you are biased to see only subjectiveness inbefore and ignoring the actual points to think about because of someone is speaking about something unpopular, i've painted it yellow and bold specially for the likes of you who seek for the easy answers. Talking about something 90% complaining is substution of facts and intentional shifting of point of the discussion.

magipi

I don't see a reason to complain about either game.

In the first game, you had a small advantage which is probably winning with perfect play. You played carelessly, and got into a losing endgame. This is normal in blitz.

In the second game, your opponent resigned in a completely equal position for no reason, and somehow you still find a way to complain. Utterly bizarre.

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee
magipi wrote:

I don't see a reason to complain about either game.

In the first game, you had a small advantage which is probably winning with perfect play. You played carelessly, and got into a losing endgame. This is normal in blitz.

In the second game, your opponent resigned in a completely equal position for no reason, and somehow you still find a way to complain. Utterly bizarre.

You are completely right (except one thing*), but missed whole point of the subj. Games themselves are just 2 random examples as i physically cannot find and post them all and noone would make a statistics from thousand of my games. Please re-read the initial post, this is not about analyzing these 2 games at all.

* Guy in second game resigned with a reason. And reason is described in the post. He tried fried liver and failed, then he tried Q abuse and failed. Then he resigned because it is faster to lose here and win next few games with these strategies.

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee

MelvinGarvey wrote:
I've read you post #1, and I must say it's a mess. And a painfull one.

Yeah sorry english is not my native

MelvinGarvey wrote:
Your post contains many items, so totally irrelevant to chess, as if you did not know that online chess is not the real chess, and allows incredibly wrong things, such as chatting during a (live) game.

Ofc it is not about chess as game, it is about rating/matchmaking system here

MelvinGarvey wrote:
You truly seem to me, very narrow minded when, for an example, you set "two categories of players", like you can't figure out it's an over simplification of things, built around an obsession of yours.

It indeed is and believe me i don't like it either. But i don't know how else could i describe the issue.

MelvinGarvey wrote:
Players playing an early Qh4/5, are a detail in a detail of a detail, within a petty and rather meaningless branch of chess.

Why do i get them in ~15% of my games? Why do i get fried liverers in ~60% of games? Why 40% of those fried liverers target Qh5 when fried liver gets blocked? It is not a detail in a detail of a detail within a petty and rather meaningless branch of chess. It is a widespread patterned behavoir.

magipi
1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee wrote:

he resigned because it is faster to lose here and win next few games with these strategies.

At the 500 Elo level, that might be true. At 1500, it certainly isn't. Nobody will fall for some easy 4-move-checkmate at that level. It is a much more reasonable explanation that he resigned because his mom shouted that dinner is ready.

(Also, as an aside, you are using "fried liver" wrong. The fried liver opening is a specific piece sacrifice line within the Two Knights variation. It does not apply here at all. It's not important, but it bugs me a bit.)

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee
magipi wrote:
1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee wrote:

he resigned because it is faster to lose here and win next few games with these strategies.

At the 500 Elo level, that might be true. At 1500, it certainly isn't. Nobody will fall for some easy 4-move-checkmate at that level. It is a much more reasonable explanation that he resigned because his mom shouted that dinner is ready.

(Also, as an aside, you are using "fried liver" wrong. The fried liver opening is a specific piece sacrifice line within the Two Knights variation. It does not apply here at all. It's not important, but it bugs me a bit.)

About fried liver, yeah i mean white's e4 Nf3 Bf4 with intention of Ng5 instead of further actual development.

About first, i disagree and thats why i made the post and asked for others' statistics.

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee
MelvinGarvey wrote:

I'm disgusted and devastated when I can only state, online chess turned chess into a zoo filled with animals having animal thinking and behaviour. Not to mention the absence of culture, personal work and searches that plagues the questions asked and the remarks posted in the tons of "Huh???" threads in this forum.

Aaaand now you get me

I mean, i get your initial position obviously and talk about here and now. Saying online rating is not a real one you kinda basically confirm my statement from the post (though i think 1600+ can represent some actual skill and thats what i said there).

I do not observe this from a 'self-improvement in chess' standpoint, come on, i get all of that and do not carry any hope for becoming real chess player and no way targeting towards that. But i do my observation from a sociologial one. We are dealing with majority here, and toxic behavoirs of majority is what i talk about exactly.

ardutgamersus

i would tend to agree with the OP (even though i am around 500 elo) because players at my level are harder to play than 1000 rated players. i have played with several 1000 elo’s and with 2 or 3 1500 elo’s, and their level of thought seems to be diminished down to the main openings and lines for two things: the fried liver and the london opening. players at my level of elo are more creative with openings than 1500 players, and are not only stuck to play the fried liver and london 99% of times. it would seem to me as if the higher your elo gets on this site, the lower you think.

losebean

is it?

 

JeremyCrowhurst

What I like is how the computer rated your endgame play as worse than his.  I guess it ignored the last... like... 65 moves.

RespektMyAuthoritah

Why do you have to be an a**hole and tell someone to delete the game if they don't know something? You complain about narcissist bumping their self-esteem by humiliating other people meanwhile you're doing the exact same thing. You're a sh*tty human being

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee
RespektMyAuthoritah wrote:

Why do you have to be an a**hole and tell someone to delete the game if they don't know something? You complain about narcissist bumping their self-esteem by humiliating other people meanwhile you're doing the exact same thing. You're a sh*tty human being

I tell them to delete not because they don't know something. Don't substitute please. I tell that because they use abusive strategy. Rook issue is literally icing on the cake on that rating as most illustrative example, nothing more. I have absolutely nothing against actual level of play of anyone. But that guy just cannot be 1500 while having that number. Problem is number that he got through his abusive playstyle that does not represent his actual skill. What is basically rating manipulation.

ardutgamersus
1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee wrote:
RespektMyAuthoritah wrote:

Why do you have to be an a**hole and tell someone to delete the game if they don't know something? You complain about narcissist bumping their self-esteem by humiliating other people meanwhile you're doing the exact same thing. You're a sh*tty human being

I tell them to delete not because they don't know something. Don't substitute please. I tell that because they use abusive strategy. Rook issue is literally icing on the cake on that rating as most illustrative example, nothing more. I have absolutely nothing against actual level of play of anyone. But that guy just cannot be 1500 while having that number. Problem is number that he got through his abusive playstyle that does not represent his actual skill. What is basically rating manipulation.

@1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee is technically right, rating manipulation should be a bannable offense, it doesn't take skill to get there, you just manipulate some people and then you can go and show off to your friends or whoever else

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee
ardutgamersus wrote:

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee is technically right, rating manipulation should be a bannable offense, it doesn't take skill to get there, you just manipulate some people and then you can go and show off to your friends or whoever else

Yeah but i must mention once again that i do not blame anyone in particular in this topic, only raise such kind of rating manipulation in general as the issue that devaluates rating system on given value range as a whole.

ardutgamersus

you are pointing out a common issue in that elo range right?

1337pRoGaMeRJkEeEeee
ardutgamersus wrote:

you are pointing out a common issue in that elo range right?

In perfect world i want all people to have empathy towards each other what here in particular would result stopping a desire of rating farming with Q rush and other 'win in 5 moves' youtube strategies because then they would enjoy the game itself not the fact of power over someone through the board. In reality i can only try to break a codex of silence about the issue and bring it up for a discussion. Yea i find it common. It MAY BE just me but i see clear patterns of such habit for dozen of games.

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