Counting pawn moves, zugzwang

How to count pawn moves? White to move.

On the kingside we have a trebuchet position, typical zugzwang (the king that has to move will loose). So its important to figure out how many pawn moves I have on the queen side. But I don't know how to do this. Should i calculate all lines?

My question is not about the solution (if its white to move white can win, if its black to move black can win). I would like to know how to think. Advise much appreciated.

Yes, it's rather complicated. Because what you call counting is much more calculating as the continuations change with the responses. With counting you more or less refer to one (perhaps two) fixed lines of play where each side can follow its own trajectory. Note for instance that black draws in one line by running its king to the other wing to capture a pawn. When the left and right side start interacting that's when things get complicated.

Thx, i see your point. I think I use the word 'counting' in the title because I am hoping for a quick fix (like the square rule, or the opposition rule). I am starting to realize that I háve to calculate. And my problem is that I can't. I find it much easier to calculate with pieces then with pawns.

(btw, in this problem I assume that kingside and queenside don't interact).

My question is purely: how to calculate the moves to find the right side in zugzwang on the left side of the board. Six pawns. What pawn to move when. And most important, how to think.

For instance, play 1. b4! (the only winning move) c5 2. b5? c4 3. c3 (best) Ke3 and black draws after his king conquers c3. To show that the interaction of the wings is real. White wins instead with 2. bxc5! bxc5 3. c4! Ke4 and black is one move late. Compare these 2 variations to understand the difference. In the end it is still a matter of counting but that only starts after the initial skirmishes!

I understand the difference but it's not what I am trying to learn. I have just set up the king side of the board to create a zugzwang situation. I couldnt't but would have liked to created a position:

- with the six pawns

- with zugzwang on the kingside

- without the possibility to interact between king and queen side.

It's the pawn stuff i want to master at the moment. Yes, b4 is the move. But how to find it without an engine up my sleeve (or wherever young people put there engines nowadays).

Sorry, this is what I shoud have done: white to move and put black in zugzwang (you dont need to win, zugzwang is enough).

Pawn endings are the one case that should be counted to the end.

Take the following game I had Saturday over the board that I should have lost.

So it is White to move. He correctly played 1.g3+, to which I replied 1...Kf5. Now one person in analysis suggested 2.g4+??, deflecting the king away, with the thought that White wins the race if Black goes for the h-pawn next. It actually loses! 2...Kxg4 3.Kc5 Kf4!! 4.Kd6 Kf5 and now if 5.h3, then 5...g5, and if 5.h4, then 5...g6, in both cases, Black wins.

In the game, White played 2.h4? and offered a draw, which it is after 2...g6!, which it is drawn after any King move by White. I accepted the draw.

However, 2.h3!! Wins! And it is the ONLY move that wins! After 2...g6 3.h4!!, we have the exact same position, but with Black to move. This is a case of reciprocal zugzwang. With White to move, it's only a draw, but with Black to move, White wins. Black does not have the f4-square and cannot triangulate to put White in Zugzwang, and he loses the race by 1 move, and this you have to calculate to the end.

I purposely did not put it in the diagram in order to force you to calculate. From the diagram position, White wins after:

1.g3+ Kf5 2.h3!! g6 3.h4 Kg4 4.Kc5 Kxg3 5.Kd6 Kxh4 6.Kxe6 g5 7.Kd6 g4 8.e6 g3 9.e7 g2 10.e8=Q g1=Q 11.Qh8+ Kg3 12.Qg7+ Kf2 13.Qxg1+ Kxg1 14.Kc5 Kf2 15.Kb4 Ke3 16.Kxa3 Kd4 17.Kb4! And White boxes out the Black King just in time and White wins. For example: 17...Kd5 18.Kb5 Kd6 19.Kb6 Kd7 20.Kb7 Kd6 21.a4 Kc5 22.a5 Kb5 23.a6 and the pawn cannot be stopped.

Full calculation is critical in King and Pawn endings.

Daniel Naroditsky has an excellent endgame series on YouTube. One of the videos in that series addresses in some depth the issue of determining how many waiting moves each side has in pawn endings.

Danya hits it out of the park with this series. If you want to learn about endgames, especially pawn endings, this is the place to go.

I'm afraid there is no way around calculating even when some handbooks have handsome tips and tricks. For instance, which principle would tell you that 1.b4! works in your diagram but fails when black pawn c6 is on c7? The basic problem is that zugzwang is a paradoxical instrument. The chess game and all its strategies are geared to get you ahead in development, being the first side to launch an attack, or to get your pawns in more advanced positions. Having the "right to play the next move" is always an advantage in achieving these objectives. Handing the move to your opponent for free is a high crime - except when looking for zugzwang! And this is how you get strange things like "you almost achieved zugzwang and then your opponent sacrificed a pawn and broke through". You wanted him to have the move, and he used it to demolish your defensive line. That can happen in your formation but also in others like the famous 3P vs 3P breakthrough combination which is posted here regularly!

This is all very helpful ppl. ‘Number of waiting moves’ … that’s the expression I am looking for!

Any chance you can recall what specific YouTube you are referring to OPMike? I like Naroditsky and I learned a lot about pawns from him already. Looking forward to this lesson.

This link should take you to the playlist for Naroditsky's endgame videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT1F2nOxLHOfQI_hFiDnnWj4lb5KsviJ_.

I don't recall specifically which one discusses counting waiting moves, but I'm pretty sure it is in #3 (Understanding passed pawns), #4 (Pawn races) or #5 (Pawn breakthroughs).

The entire series is worth watching several times. It’s so instructive. I’m going to go through it again, very slowly — each position set up on a board and spending as much time as necessary analyzing it before returning to Danya’s commentary.

Much luck and happiness in your chess pursuits!

Yes! Of course "waiting moves" are essential as they practically define what zugzwang is! The problem is that they are hard to count in positions like yours as they share the same space. A waiting move for one side might give or take waiting space for the other. For instance, symmetry with your opponent on move often preludes zugzwang but in your position it fails to stabilize the pawn structure:

1. c3? c5! 2. c4 (still looks perfect for white) a6! 3. a3 b5! (now it gets tricky as he can't mimic black anymore) 4. cxb5 axb5 5. a4 (what else) c4! and black looks like promoting first. The outcome totally depends on whatever else is on the board and where!

Like the interaction of the wings in the original setup the interaction of waiting spaces throws confusion in a nicely conceived stabilization plan! It appears therefore that 1.b4! is a better move as it achieves symmetry and stabilization without confusion. But to know that, you need to make the calculations first!

For some reason I didn't react to your very instructive post. I have spend a few hours on your position this morning and I have a simple but harsh conclusion: pawn endings should be calculated to the end, but I am not able to do so.

Even if I allow myself to write down the lines I am calculating, I make to many mistakes.