How to Mate with Bishop and Knight

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EKAFC

I've been struggling with how to mate with the Bishop and the Knight against a King. I am able to semi-consistently mate with two bishops but when I do the Lichess learning on Knight and Bishop, I feel like I'm doing well until I'm on my own and the king keeps escaping. Need help

KeSetoKaiba

The Delange Triangle stuff and similar stages of pushing the King seems like overkill to know and complicated in my opinion. Personally, I learned the Knight + Bishop checkmate with solid consistency in a few days of practicing the "W-maneuver." The first video I saw on this was by IM Christof Sielecki (spelling? I don't speak German) via YouTube channel chessexplained. Agadmator has a good video too though; other than this, it is just practice learning it. 

The key is just slow coordination of your pieces (knight mostly controlling squares of color Bishop can't control) and pushing the enemy King into the W-maneuver. 

EKAFC

I saw Agadamatar's video and I even saw Chessbrah's video. Both recommend an easier method to learn than what Lichess teaches. Thanks for the videos. I really appreciated them. I was able to successful mate with bishop and knight

KeSetoKaiba

Glad it helped happy.png

OpenSquirrel
Thanks for the suggestion Videos I’ve been looking for something like this as I’ve also been struggling with the knight and bishop mate.
KeSetoKaiba
OpenSquirrel wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion Videos I’ve been looking for something like this as I’ve also been struggling with the knight and bishop mate.

It is mainly just practice with the endgame you want to learn and having all of your pieces work together to slowly push the enemy King where you want them too go. Usually, I estimate 2 Bishops checkmate to be learned around 1600 rating and Bishop + Knight checkmate to be learned around 1800 rating. I know someone under 1400 who worked super hard to learn two Bishops checkmate AND Bishop + Knight Checkmate and they got it, but they worked really diligently on it.

Conversely, I also know 2000 rated players who probably don't know Bishop + Knight that well, or learned it years ago and likely forgot some of the key points. My 1600 and 1800 is just an estimate for rating that I see usually figure these endings out, but they take time to study and practice happy.png

EKAFC
KeSetoKaiba wrote:
OpenSquirrel wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion Videos I’ve been looking for something like this as I’ve also been struggling with the knight and bishop mate.

It is mainly just practice with the endgame you want to learn and having all of your pieces work together to slowly push the enemy King where you want them too go. Usually, I estimate 2 Bishops checkmate to be learned around 1600 rating and Bishop + Knight checkmate to be learned around 1800 rating. I know someone under 1400 who worked super hard to learn two Bishops checkmate AND Bishop + Knight Checkmate and they got it, but they worked really diligently on it.

Conversely, I also know 2000 rated players who probably don't know Bishop + Knight that well, or learned it years ago and likely forgot some of the key points. My 1600 and 1800 is just an estimate for rating that I see usually figure these endings out, but they take time to study and practice

I've seen a clip of Hans Niemann going crazy because a grandmaster couldn't mate with bishop and knight. So far I can mate with light-squared bishop but not the dark-squared bishop yet

ChampoftheBepoCamp
EKAFC wrote:
KeSetoKaiba wrote:
OpenSquirrel wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion Videos I’ve been looking for something like this as I’ve also been struggling with the knight and bishop mate.

It is mainly just practice with the endgame you want to learn and having all of your pieces work together to slowly push the enemy King where you want them too go. Usually, I estimate 2 Bishops checkmate to be learned around 1600 rating and Bishop + Knight checkmate to be learned around 1800 rating. I know someone under 1400 who worked super hard to learn two Bishops checkmate AND Bishop + Knight Checkmate and they got it, but they worked really diligently on it.

Conversely, I also know 2000 rated players who probably don't know Bishop + Knight that well, or learned it years ago and likely forgot some of the key points. My 1600 and 1800 is just an estimate for rating that I see usually figure these endings out, but they take time to study and practice

I've seen a clip of Hans Niemann going crazy because a grandmaster couldn't mate with bishop and knight. So far I can mate with light-squared bishop but not the dark-squared bishop yet

Er that's the reverse colors you should be fine

DerekDHarvey

It is easy to avoid KBNvK endings by keeping some pawns on. I avoid it like the plague. A draw by the 50 move rule has to be claimed as it is in OTB. In this game I did not claim the draw until a few moves after the 50th when checkmate was imminent. 

Chess: DerekDHarvey vs predadan79 - 326504024 - Chess.com

KeSetoKaiba
EKAFC wrote:
KeSetoKaiba wrote:
OpenSquirrel wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion Videos I’ve been looking for something like this as I’ve also been struggling with the knight and bishop mate.

It is mainly just practice with the endgame you want to learn and having all of your pieces work together to slowly push the enemy King where you want them too go. Usually, I estimate 2 Bishops checkmate to be learned around 1600 rating and Bishop + Knight checkmate to be learned around 1800 rating. I know someone under 1400 who worked super hard to learn two Bishops checkmate AND Bishop + Knight Checkmate and they got it, but they worked really diligently on it.

Conversely, I also know 2000 rated players who probably don't know Bishop + Knight that well, or learned it years ago and likely forgot some of the key points. My 1600 and 1800 is just an estimate for rating that I see usually figure these endings out, but they take time to study and practice

I've seen a clip of Hans Niemann going crazy because a grandmaster couldn't mate with bishop and knight. So far I can mate with light-squared bishop but not the dark-squared bishop yet

Yeah, because GMs should be able to convert a "basic theoretical endgame" even if a tougher one like B + N checkmate. Besides, many GMs who have studied this rare checkmate can even get it successfully in blitz. I've been lucky enough to successfully pull of this checkmate a few times INCLUDING a blitz game once or twice. Although a long time ago, I think this game was my most recent with it in a real game:

p.s. Other titled players are on another level with how well they know it though and GM Andrew Tang is a perfect example of someone who knows this endgame well it looks like xD

 

KeSetoKaiba

Edit my diagram didn't post sad.png If someone can post it for me that would be great; here is the long pgn for my recent B + N checkmate in a game (about a year ago) 

[Event "Live Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2020.09.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "KeSetoKaiba"]
[Black "galenfanney"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A51"]
[WhiteElo "1797"]
[BlackElo "1847"]
[TimeControl "600"]
[EndTime "21:10:03 PDT"]
[Termination "KeSetoKaiba won by checkmate"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. Nc3 exd4 4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Qd1 Bb4 6. Bd2 Qe7 7. Nf3 Ne5 8.
Nxe5 Qxe5 9. g3 O-O 10. Bg2 c6 11. a3 Bd6 12. Bf4 Qe7 13. Qxd6 Re8 14. Qxe7 Rxe7
15. Bg5 Re5 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. e3 d6 18. O-O-O Be6 19. Rxd6 Bxc4 20. Rxf6 Rd8 21.
Rd1 Rde8 22. Rd7 Kg7 23. Rf4 b5 24. Rc7 c5 25. Kc2 a5 26. Bh3 a4 27. Nxa4 Rh5
28. b3 Be2 29. Rfxf7+ Kh8 30. Bf5 Rxh2 31. Rxh7+ Rxh7 32. Rxh7+ Kg8 33. Nxc5 Bg4
34. Bxg4 Kxh7 35. a4 bxa4 36. Nxa4 Kg6 37. Kc3 Kg5 38. f3 Rxe3+ 39. Kd4 Rxb3 40.
Nc5 Rb4+ 41. Ke5 Rb5 42. Kd4 Rb4+ 43. Kd5 Rb5 44. Kc4 Rb1 45. Ne4+ Kh6 46. Kd5
Rb5+ 47. Ke6 Rb6+ 48. Nd6 Kg5 49. Bh3 Rb3 50. Bg2 Re3+ 51. Kd5 Re2 52. Bh1 Re1
53. Bg2 Rg1 54. f4+ Kg4 55. Be4 Kxg3 56. f5 Rf1 57. Ke5 Kg4 58. f6 Kg5 59. f7
Rxf7 60. Nxf7+ Kg4 61. Nd6 Kg5 62. Nf5 Kg4 63. Nd4 Kg5 64. Bf5 Kh6 65. Kf6 Kh5
66. Nf3 Kh6 67. Ne5 Kh5 68. Nf3 Kh6 69. Bg4 Kh7 70. Ne5 Kh6 71. Nf7+ Kh7 72.
Bf5+ Kg8 73. Bg6 Kf8 74. Bh7 Ke8 75. Ne5 Kd8 76. Ke6 Kc7 77. Nd7 Kc6 78. Bd3 Kc7
79. Be4 Kd8 80. Kd6 Ke8 81. Bd5 Kd8 82. Bf7 Kc8 83. Nc5 Kd8 84. Nb7+ Kc8 85. Kc6
Kb8 86. Kb6 Kc8 87. Be6+ Kb8 88. Bd7 Ka8 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Na6+ Ka8 91. Bc6# 1-0

JosheloNeirdo

how?

DerekDHarvey

I have had trouble posting diagrams

ChampoftheBepoCamp

If you repost it shows up lel... anyhow you can give the link too

MalachiProsper
@EKAFC play me..
tygxc

"A beginner should not be allowed to play a game of chess until he can checkmate KBN vs. K" - Capablanca

KeSetoKaiba
tygxc wrote:

"A beginner should not be allowed to play a game of chess until he can checkmate KBN vs. K" - Capablanca

The endgame is important and endgames like B + N checkmate require piece coordination (good chess skill to learn anyway), but B + N endgames are so rare anyway that I wouldn't avoid chess just because you don't know this endgame. Much more common are pawn endgames, or Rook endgames with some pawns on the board - those are more valuable to learn from the perspective of practicality. Over literally 1000s of chess games, I've only gotten B + N endgame (winning side or defending side) maybe 3 or 4 times before, so it isn't THAT important to know...but it is cool to know and does teach important chess concepts as you learn it though happy.png

Sequoia70

"I never said half the things I get quoted as saying on the Internet." --George Washington

KeSetoKaiba
Sequoia70 wrote:

"I never said half the things I get quoted as saying on the Internet." --George Washington

"True that!" - Albert Einstein (probably)

johnworldesen2200