Premature resignation?

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cobra91

In a recent OTB loss, I resigned the position below (after 57.Bg4). Was there some miraculous way to draw that I missed, or is Black just as dead lost as I suspected? (Sorry, I don't have an engine to just plug this into, so any answers are appreciated)

Dragec
If the last move was Bg4, then black is to move, not white?
David_Spencer

Well, I might be missing everything in this position (I've found it considerably confusing) but here is my try at analysis.

ilmago

Black might try to calculate or play out some checks that could still put up some threats.

For example, 1...Qf4+ 2.Nf6 Qxh6, and for example after now 3.Bxd7, it is not yet comletely clear, black may be able to give quite some queen checks still or threaten pushing the h-pawn.

 

Or maybe an even better try could be to give checks that threaten to win the bishop with

1...Qd5+!?

with at least some dangerous threats, for example

a) 2.Ke7 Qg5+! followed by 3...Qxg5 winning the bishop and increasing black's chances

b) 2.Kg7 Qg5+ also winning the bishop

c) 2.Kf6 Qd4+!? 3.Kf5 and now black may be able to continue giving checks with 3...Qd5+, for example, maybe resulting in a draw by perpetual if white does not dare to try to get out of it (and maybe expose the knight to some fork or so)

d) so 2.Kf8!? seems the best response to 1...Qd5+!?, after which black may try something like 2...Qg5 followed by Qxh6 again, maybe.

 

A third interesting try could be to race with the a-pawn with something like

1...Qd5+ 2.Kf8

2...Kb3!? 3.Bxd7 Kxa3 intending ...Kxb4, a3, a2, a1Q next, being probably prepared to use the queen to stop or to exchange the d-pawn while getting a new queen on a1.

 

So in total, it seems that there is still a while lot left to play for. One may not feel like being able to calculate everything over the board, but it would certainly be interesting to not resign here and try to play out one of the interesting lines mentioned. Maybe after the smoke clears, it will turns out that black has a draw or even a win here? Or it may even turn out that black can create enough difficulties so that white goes wrong somewhere?

 

I think I would definitely try to play this on.

 

-------

Sir David was faster than I was. :-) His analysis gives very interesting concrete examples for what can happen. If some of the resulting positions are unclear, then they are still definitely worth trying instead of resigning :-)

cobra91
Dragec wrote:
If the last move was Bg4, then black is to move, not white?

 Heh... you're right, it's supposed to be Black to move, I'll edit that... luckily, SirDavid and CM ilmago figured this out for themselves!

zerobounds

i played around in it and came out fine with black, the king captures the pawn at the end and the black queen can get behind the white promoting pawn to capture if need be and white will not have time to stop black's promotion.

cobra91
SirDavid wrote:

Well, I might be missing everything in this position (I've found it considerably confusing) but here is my try at analysis.

 


 Wow, I obviously have a lot to learn about these kinds of endgames. Great analysis, especially the idea of tearing into White's queenside pawns with the king. Though Black may be in a bit of trouble after 8.Nd5+ Kc5  9.Bf7, this was definitely FAR from over (in fact, Black may even be winning in a few of those "unclear" lines). Thanks for the input!

David_Spencer

Very interesting ideas everyone! ilmago, what if Black tries to go get the a-pawn and promote after 2.Kf8 (which you suggested as White's best try in 1...Qd5+)? I have to admit that I completely missed the idea of forking the Bishop in most of those lines Embarassed

cobra, I must be missing the point - what happens after 8.Nd5+ cxd5?

cobra91

Ouch...forgot board was flipped...anyway, not sure how Black draws in this continuation. Any thoughts? (And please don't say, "What if *Black captures hanging piece* ?" this time, or I might just go insane!)

David_Spencer

No hanging piece, but perhaps there is a hanging pawn after 6...Qxc5? It gets really tough after that, but I'm not ready to give up. EDIT: Well, in the final position, if you take the Black pawns off the Nalimov tables have it as a draw. Now I'm feeling a little more hopeful for drawing chances. http://www.k4it.de/index.php?topic=egtb&lang=en

 

cobra91

After 8.Ng4! a3  9.Ke8, White may still have winning chances (though I don't doubt your ability to easily refute this). Btw, why the "!!" after my rather lame 4.Nf6 move?

BlunderMeister

Just for grins, I had CM11 play the black pieces against Stockfish.  Stockfish is a much stronger engine than CM11.  I gave each side 30 minutes.  And Stockfish could only manage a draw against CM11.

Dragec
redbirdpat wrote:

Just for grins, I had CM11 play the black pieces against Stockfish.  Stockfish is a much stronger engine than CM11.  I gave each side 30 minutes.  And Stockfish could only manage a draw against CM11.


Would you paste the lines here?

BlunderMeister
Dragec wrote:
redbirdpat wrote:

Just for grins, I had CM11 play the black pieces against Stockfish.  Stockfish is a much stronger engine than CM11.  I gave each side 30 minutes.  And Stockfish could only manage a draw against CM11.


Would you paste the lines here?

Here is the game that was played.  Where it says Pat, that is actually Stockfish.  I'm not really that good.  :-)

 

Dragec

very interesting, not even a remotely similar lines to those presented by others in the thread. Cool

AtahanT

Bxd7 and then d7 and you will threaten to queen the pawn and black has to give perpetual checks to stop you.

David_Spencer

8.Ng4 a3 9.Ke8 a2 10.Bxa2 Qxa2 11.d8(Q) Qg8+ 12.Ke7 Qxd8+ and I think Black is fine, although I could be wrong - I don't have much time to analyze now. Last time, I'd copied and pasted the pgn from your post, so that's where the !! on Nf6 came from.

chessgenius2014

white is lost knight and bishop vs. queen is lost for knight and bishop