Endgame Fundamental - Question

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GambitDanois

Hello everyone, 

I was doing some drills on chess.com and I failed this one. Here, the only valuable move for white is Kg2 if you want to win the game. I know that is about opposition but I can't understand why. 

I tried to think about the solution and for me, Ke1 or Kg1 could have been possibilities. But Ke1 is not possible because de e-file is blocked by e6 pawn and Kg1 is possible according to stockfish but only if we come back after to go again on Kg2.

I hope someone who knows the solution could explain that to me because I'd like to understand it even if I'm not sure to remind that in a game :'( 

Thank you a lot and sorry for my english,

GD

IMKeto

Im not saying this is the correct answer, because im about as ignorant as they come regarding corresponding squares (which i think this is) but!...I think 1.Kg2 works because no matter where the black king moves, white will take some type of Opposition.

GambitDanois

Thank you four your answer.

I tried to work again on it and I've seen there is e2-e6 g2-g6 where it is possible to take the opposition thanks to the e$g5 pawn which blocks the e6 square for the black king. 

I think that is part of the solution but it still complicate to seize it and I'm sure I will not capable to find it in a game! Need to work on it again haha!

 

 

kindaspongey

1 Kf2 allows 1...Kf8, obtaining a draw for Black.

1 Ke1 or 1 Ke2 also allow a draw. After either move, Black can play 1...Ke8 with the plan to go back and forth between e7 and e8 for as long as White moves his king on the e-file. If White returns to the f-file, Black can also move to the f-file, choosing between ...Kf7 and ...Kf8 in order to get distant (or perhaps basic) opposition on the f-file. If White goes to the d-file, Black can move to the d-file (either square) and be ready to take up distant opposition on the c-file if White proceeds to the c-file. c5 can be answered by ...dxc5, followed by moving the black king so as to be able to block the d-pawn.

If White plays 1 Kg1, then Black can reply 1...Kf7 and how is White going to make progress? If 2 Kg2, then 2...Kg8 and the game is drawn. If 2 Kf2, then 2...Kf8 and the game is drawn. If White moves to the h-file, then 2...Kf6 and, in order to save the c4 pawn, White has to go back to the g-file, allowing Black to take up distant opposition on the g-file and draw the game. After 1 Kg1 Kf7, there is nothing better for White then to go back to f1, and no progress has been made.

1 Kg2 makes progress. For example, if 1...Kf7, then 2 Kf3, winning.

Ziryab

The key to this exercise in understanding that you need to take opposition on the f-file, as that is the only file where opposition leads to outflanking. Mark Dvoretsky explains it well in Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual.

kindaspongey

It is possible that opposition may not take place with both kings on the f-file.

Of course, some people may not own Dvoretsky (page 20). Perhaps, it is something of a matter of taste as to what one identifies as the "key" idea. I would say that it is for White to get to g6, f6, e6, c6, b6, or a6. That also covers the case of Black rushing to c5.

I think that White does have to keep the a, b, and c files in mind.

 

LightningPanda_8
King moves
GambitDanois

Thank you all for your messages! I'll read them with attention and I'll try this drill again! I was not active these las few days, that's why I didn't answer before. Thank you a lot! 

 

@kindpaspongey : I wanted to buy Dvoretsky's book to work endgames but lots of players told me it would be to difficult to understand until I am 2000 ^^

d4a_pawna_Line

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kindaspongey
GambitDanois wrote:

@kindpaspongey : I wanted to buy Dvoretsky's book to work endgames but lots of players told me it would be to difficult to understand until I am 2000 ^^

"... before discussing the specifics of Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual [henceforth 'DEM'], a word of warning is in order. I must emphasize that this is a terribly advanced work that I don't think is a very good way for the average player to study the endgame. The majority of the examples are complex and position-specific, and neither the average student nor even strong masters will follow or play over most of the hundreds of positions that are given extensive analysis, not to mention the subvariations derived from those positions. Even when introducing 'the basics', Dvoretsky's approach is often more complex than is necessary for an average student, and in any case such a thick book will seldom be used for the sake of elementary instruction. The majority of the other material is frankly very difficult. So take note: I don't want to be blamed, in praising this book, for your purchasing something that you find intimidating, relatively dull, or otherwise unsatisfying. That said, if you are up to a real challenge and have a great deal of time to devote to reading and playing over examples you will inevitably derive great value from this work. ..." - IM John Watson (2005)

http://theweekinchess.com/john-watson-reviews/the-end-game-comes-before-we-know-it
http://www.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Dvoretskys-Endgame-Manual-3rd-Edition-78p3502.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20140708233815/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review399.pdf
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/2703.pdf

"... I'm convinced that Silman's [Complete Endgame Course] will take its place in history as one of the most popular endgame books ever. It has already caught on with the average player in a big way, confirming Silman's status as the king of instructional writers. He writes in a clear and casual style, and time and again has shown the ability to reach those who feel intimidated by the lofty approach that a grandmaster will often take. ... Silman ... defines what he thinks is necessary to know at specific rating levels. For example, the beginner or unrated player needs to know ... Silman's idea is to wait until you climb in strength before you worry about more advanced material. Then, as a Class 'E' player (that's 1000-1199), one must learn ... Silman's book emphasizes to the student that the important thing is to master the strictly limited material at hand, rather than get confused by endings that won't help your results at that level. Perhaps even more importantly, Silman is able to use his teaching experience and talk to his readers in a way that they can handle, in a friendly manner and without condescension. ... I'll also repeat the point that David Ellinger in ChessCafe makes: '[This ...] demonstrates who this book will truly serve best: anybody who coaches chess. For me, as a perpetually near-2000 player who does part-time coaching, I’ve got in my hands a great resource that will have something for every student, no matter the rating.' ..." - IM John Watson (2007)

http://theweekinchess.com/john-watson-reviews/theres-an-end-to-it-all
https://web.archive.org/web/20140708103149/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review594.pdf

https://www.silmanjamespress.com/shop/chess/silmans-complete-endgame-course/

Senator_Plutarsky

tracking

Ziryab
kindaspongey wrote:
GambitDanois wrote:

@kindpaspongey : I wanted to buy Dvoretsky's book to work endgames but lots of players told me it would be to difficult to understand until I am 2000 ^^

"... before discussing the specifics of Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual [henceforth 'DEM'], a word of warning is in order. I must emphasize that this is a terribly advanced work that I don't think is a very good way for the average player to study the endgame. The majority of the examples are complex and position-specific, and neither the average student nor even strong masters will follow or play over most of the hundreds of positions that are given extensive analysis, not to mention the subvariations derived from those positions. Even when introducing 'the basics', Dvoretsky's approach is often more complex than is necessary for an average student, and in any case such a thick book will seldom be used for the sake of elementary instruction. The majority of the other material is frankly very difficult. So take note: I don't want to be blamed, in praising this book, for your purchasing something that you find intimidating, relatively dull, or otherwise unsatisfying. That said, if you are up to a real challenge and have a great deal of time to devote to reading and playing over examples you will inevitably derive great value from this work. ..." - IM John Watson (2005)

http://theweekinchess.com/john-watson-reviews/the-end-game-comes-before-we-know-it
http://www.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Dvoretskys-Endgame-Manual-3rd-Edition-78p3502.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20140708233815/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review399.pdf
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/2703.pdf

"... I'm convinced that Silman's [Complete Endgame Course] will take its place in history as one of the most popular endgame books ever. It has already caught on with the average player in a big way, confirming Silman's status as the king of instructional writers. He writes in a clear and casual style, and time and again has shown the ability to reach those who feel intimidated by the lofty approach that a grandmaster will often take. ... Silman ... defines what he thinks is necessary to know at specific rating levels. For example, the beginner or unrated player needs to know ... Silman's idea is to wait until you climb in strength before you worry about more advanced material. Then, as a Class 'E' player (that's 1000-1199), one must learn ... Silman's book emphasizes to the student that the important thing is to master the strictly limited material at hand, rather than get confused by endings that won't help your results at that level. Perhaps even more importantly, Silman is able to use his teaching experience and talk to his readers in a way that they can handle, in a friendly manner and without condescension. ... I'll also repeat the point that David Ellinger in ChessCafe makes: '[This ...] demonstrates who this book will truly serve best: anybody who coaches chess. For me, as a perpetually near-2000 player who does part-time coaching, I’ve got in my hands a great resource that will have something for every student, no matter the rating.' ..." - IM John Watson (2007)

http://theweekinchess.com/john-watson-reviews/theres-an-end-to-it-all
https://web.archive.org/web/20140708103149/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review594.pdf

https://www.silmanjamespress.com/shop/chess/silmans-complete-endgame-course/

 

I stopped reading Watson's book reviews several years ago. He rarely says anything useful about a book. 

kindaspongey

I think it is somewhat useful to have an idea about the difference in target audience between Dvoretsky and Silman. Anyway, I provided links to other reviews and samples.

"... 99% of all active chessplayers will be able to follow the blue diagrams [in Dvoretsky's book] and remember these positions. At the same time, top players will still find a lot of the material challenging and valuable. Club players will probably find a lot of the exercises rather difficult. I myself, and a friend rated over 2600, have found the exercises quite demanding. ..." - GM Jacob Aagaard

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708233815/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review399.pdf

Ziryab
kindaspongey wrote:

I think it is somewhat useful to have an idea about the difference in target audience between Dvoretsky and Silman. Anyway, I provided links to other reviews and samples.

"... 99% of all active chessplayers will be able to follow the blue diagrams [in Dvoretsky's book] and remember these positions. At the same time, top players will still find a lot of the material challenging and valuable. Club players will probably find a lot of the exercises rather difficult. I myself, and a friend rated over 2600, have found the exercises quite demanding. ..." - GM Jacob Aagaard

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708233815/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review399.pdf

 

Aagaard is right about the blue diagrams and the layers of difficulty. Silman defines his layers by rating, which is a notoriously inaccurate guide. I've played people hundreds of points above me in rating who should review that part of Silman's endgame course hundreds of points below me.

I think the critical factor for understanding Dvoretsky has a lot less to do with rating and a lot more to do with willingness to wrestle with difficulty. Silman attempts to water down the content. Watson's criticism that Dvoretsky offers "complex and position-specific" exercises is a bit off. Dvoretsky gets to the heart of the process of endgame problem solving. Silman tells you that you can apply the general principles that he articulates; Dvoretsky teaches you how principles work out in practice.

I've read major portions of Silman and of Dvorestsky. I rarely return to Silman's text. I'm in Dvoretsky every month.

kindaspongey
Ziryab  wrote

... Silman defines his layers by rating, which is a notoriously inaccurate guide. I've played people hundreds of points above me in rating who should review that part of Silman's endgame course hundreds of points below me. ...

Did Silman claim that his book provides accurate predictions of the endgame knowledge of players at various ratings? Or was he claiming to provide an approximate guide for the minimum desirable endgame knowledge at various ratings?

kindaspongey
Ziryab  wrote:

Aagaard is right about the blue diagrams and the layers of difficulty [in the Dvoretsky book]. ...

Including that comment about "a lot of the exercises" probably being "rather difficult" for "club players"? Exercises "quite demanding" for GM Jacob Aagard and "a friend rated over 2600"?

kindaspongey
Ziryab  wrote:

… I think the critical factor for understanding Dvoretsky has a lot less to do with rating and a lot more to do with willingness to wrestle with difficulty. ...

Do all players want to wrestle with the same degree of difficulty? Should they? Is it perhaps reasonable for IM Watson to give potential readers an indication of the variation in difficulty from one book to another?

kindaspongey
Ziryab  wrote:

… Silman attempts to water down the content. … I've read major portions of Silman and of Dvorestsky. I rarely return to Silman's text. I'm in Dvoretsky every month.

Are you the primary target audience of the Silman book?

"... My peak USCF OTB rating is high 1900s. …" - Ziryab (~6 days ago)

RussBell

Similar examples which might provide some guidance as to how to play these kinds of positions.  The following 3 pages were scanned from my copy of Essential Chess Endings Explained Move By Move by Jeremy Silman (pp 67-69)...

 



The following is from Endgame Workshop by Bruce Pandolfini (p.153)....

The prior two books, along with Silman's Complete Endgame Course provide excellent coverage of THE OPPOSITION.

More endgame books recommended here...

Good Chess Books for Beginners and Beyond...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/good-chess-books-for-beginners-and-beyond

MARattigan

The position is diagram 147 in Averbakh's Comprehensive Chess Endings, vol 4, Pawn Endings (Pergamon Press version - now Ishi Press) under the heading Dedrle , 1921. Full explanation there. Excellent book.