How to play againest the fried liver as black?

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bigbeast321

I cant 

tygxc

Here is a recent grandmaster game with it

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2654641

Adamchess232
Adamchess232

or you could just prevent it by playing bc5 instead of nf6 on move 3

Falkentyne

This line being recommended is a typical positional pawn sacrifice line, where Black gets a lead in development and open lines, as compensation for his missing b-pawn. There are a few ways for both sides to play it, but Black has full compensation even with best play by White.

The line given by Adamchess232 cannot be recommended for Black. After his 8 Qf3, Bb7?! 9 Ba4 leaves Black still fighting for full equality (9 ...Be7 10 d3 0-0 11 0-0, and it's clear White can be pleased with the opening and Black is not equal). Instead of 8...Bb7, simply 8...cxb5! 9 Qxa8 Qc7 9 Qf3 Nc6 gives Black full compensation with huge piece activity, and 9...Be7 (instead of ...Qc7), 10 0-0 0-0 is also full compensation for Black. White is virtually forced to sacrifice a pawn with 11 d4 exd4, as 11 Nc3? gets White in a lot of trouble after 11 ...b4! 12 Nb5 a6 13 Na7 Bb7 and that Knight isn't long for this universe.

8 Bd3 is probably the best try for White to achieve anything, but Black can still be happy about getting his share of chances in an imbalanced game.

When I was a kid playing in Scholastics, before I switched to the Sicilian, i was an ...e5 player, and I had no problems at all with the two knights defense vs Nf3-g5, by playing ...d5. I remember winning I think a nice game in one of my first tournaments (Idk if it was a scholastic or the american open) with this defense.

nklristic
Adamchess232 wrote:

or you could just prevent it by playing bc5 instead of nf6 on move 3

This is by far the easiest choice for a novice level player. At this ooint Ng5 is imposible as it hangs a knight. After this you play Nf6, you castle, and if white still plays Ng5 after your Nf6 move, and decides to exchange 2 minor pieces for a rook and a pawn, you would have an advantage.

tygxc

@7

"This is by far the easiest choice for a novice level player."
++ 3...Bc5 violates the principle to develop knights first and only then bishops.
3...Bc5 runs into all kinds of other problems like 4 b4, or 4 c3 and 5 d4.
It is telling that Carlsen in his match with Nepo preferred 3...Nf6.

play4fun64
nklristic wrote:
Adamchess232 wrote:

or you could just prevent it by playing bc5 instead of nf6 on move 3

This is by far the easiest choice for a novice level player. At this ooint Ng5 is imposible as it hangs a knight. After this you play Nf6, you castle, and if white still plays Ng5 after your Nf6 move, and decides to exchange 2 minor pieces for a rook and a pawn, you would have an advantage.

I agree with 3... Bc5 as the easiest for Novice players to prevent 4. Ng5. 4... d5 looks awkward in the eyes of Novice players.

EndgameEnthusiast2357

Traxler Gambit is the best option against the fried liver. Play bc5 immediately after ng5.

nklristic
tygxc wrote:

@7

"This is by far the easiest choice for a novice level player."
++ 3...Bc5 violates the principle to develop knights first and only then bishops.
3...Bc5 runs into all kinds of other problems like 4 b4, or 4 c3 and 5 d4.
It is telling that Carlsen in his match with Nepo preferred 3...Nf6.

I haven't seen many Magnus Carlsens at 700 level. it doesn't matter what super GMs play more often. Besides, both of those are sound moves, it is not like I am suggesting some unsound piece sacrifice. Yes there are some potential complications afterwards, but guess what, it is move 3, of course white might get some chance to complicate the game at that point. 3. ...Nf6 is already complicated at this level if white chooses to play Ng5, which is why this topic exists in the first place.

3. ... Bc5 is certainly an easier solution than 3. ...Nf6 for a novice level player. Bc5 doesn't allow white to play this trick, and at that level, this is probably the only trick he has. Basically, you don't allow white to play the game he wishes to play.

When he gets a bit better, he might want to learn what to play against Evans for instance, or to learn a few moves after 3. ...Nf6 if he chooses to go for that, but for now 3. ...Bc5 will be a good choice, that solves his current problems.

Stockfishdot1

You can also watch videos on the Traxler Gambit and variations that are pretty devastating. Probably 80% of the games in which I am black are played against either the Scholar's Mate or the Fried Liver. It doesn't take much to return the favor on the queen side.

nklristic
Stockfishdot1 wrote:

You can also watch videos on the Traxler Gambit and variations that are pretty devastating. Probably 80% of the games in which I am black are played against either the Scholar's Mate or the Fried Liver. It doesn't take much to return the favor on the queen side.

Traxler is not a really sound opening. People may use it for fun, especially in shorter games, but objectively is not a good choice.

Stockfishdot1
nklristic wrote:
Stockfishdot1 wrote:

You can also watch videos on the Traxler Gambit and variations that are pretty devastating. Probably 80% of the games in which I am black are played against either the Scholar's Mate or the Fried Liver. It doesn't take much to return the favor on the queen side.

Traxler is not a really sound opening. People may use it for fun, especially in shorter games, but objectively is not a good choice.

Yeah, it's risky. But it's fun.

EndgameEnthusiast2357
nklristic wrote:
Stockfishdot1 wrote:

You can also watch videos on the Traxler Gambit and variations that are pretty devastating. Probably 80% of the games in which I am black are played against either the Scholar's Mate or the Fried Liver. It doesn't take much to return the favor on the queen side.

Traxler is not a really sound opening. People may use it for fun, especially in shorter games, but objectively is not a good choice.

Even if white plays the next 20 top computer moves against it he only ends up slightly better. It's very hard to defend against. I've watched videos of high level games played with it and many of the times black lost is because he missed long forced mates. Here's an example of how black can win after kf1:

White cannot stop mate on f2. After 8..nd4, whites best move is 9.d6, but then they have to know 20-25 moves of computer theory after it.

nklristic
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
nklristic wrote:
Stockfishdot1 wrote:

You can also watch videos on the Traxler Gambit and variations that are pretty devastating. Probably 80% of the games in which I am black are played against either the Scholar's Mate or the Fried Liver. It doesn't take much to return the favor on the queen side.

Traxler is not a really sound opening. People may use it for fun, especially in shorter games, but objectively is not a good choice.

Even if white plays the next 20 top computer moves against it he only ends up slightly better. It's very hard to defend against. I've watched videos of high level games played with it and many of the times black lost is because he missed long forced mates. Here's an example of how black can win after kf1:

White cannot stop mate on f2. After 8..nd4, whites best move is 9.d6, but then they have to know 20-25 moves of computer theory after it.

9.c3 is bad, makes no sense (not even a patzer like myself would play that grin.png). Black needs to know even more theory than white in order to not be lost after 7.Nxh8. I mean, OP has a problem with 4.Ng5, so it is not really a good idea to propose him to learn 20 moves of Traxler counter attack, he obviously needs something simpler.

Sure, here both need to know a bunch of theory, but neither will at this level, and who knows what the game will look like. This line seems like an interesting thing for black to play every now and then in faster games when they are pretty high rated.

AngryPuffer

dont let white play it, instead play b5, Nd4, or Na5

AngryPuffer

3.Bc5 is alright. It allows white to play the evans gambit or the main line with c3, which can be very dangerous for black

play4fun64

Evan's Gambit is not popular, the Fried Liver is.

magipi
play4fun64 wrote:

Evan's Gambit is not popular, the Fried Liver is.

"Evan's Gambit" does not exist. The Evans Gambit is named after Captain William Davies Evans.

The Fried liver hasn't appeared in master play in the last 150 years. What you're talking about is not the Fried Liver, but the Two Knights variation.

play4fun64

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_Liver_Attack

The Two Knights defense have many variations. The Fried Liver Attack is one of them.