Is it important to learn the minor piece mating patterns?

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Marcyful
Besides the most basic mating patterns like K+Q and K+R, there are also more advanced patterns like K+N+B and K+B+B. Question is: Is it really important to learn these other mating patterns? Its ultra rare for me to come across winning endgames where I have 2 minor pieces but not even 1 pawn.
AtaChess68
I think it’s important to know what combinations do not mate K+N, K+B K+N+N. But that is not your question.

For myself (1400-ish) I decided not to learn K+N+B and I practiced K+B+B a few times long ago and I know I can’t do it under time or move count pressure. The reason why I don’t learn them is that there is SO much to learn, and so little time… .

What I did is - reading Silmans Complete Endgame Course - practicing K+R and K+Q till I could do them mindlessly and fast. That was one of the most effective study sessions in my chess life. It happens a lot and often in time pressure.

RAU4ever

Practically speaking it's not important. Over thousands and thousands of games I've had the ending K+B+N vs K once, I believe. It might be interesting to take a look at that ending, because you get an appreciation of how knight and bishop could work together, but I wouldn't spend too much time learning the mating idea. 2 bishops versus king just never happens. And that's an ending you could figure out in a game if it ever occurs. I remember the only time I played K+R+B vs K+R, which is a draw, but which neither I nor my IM opponent had really learned. Playing on increment, I managed to win it after stumbling around for a while before understanding the idea. Just trying will likely get you to the right idea with the 2 bishops ending, as it's a similar approach to the two rooks mating idea.

Marcyful

I actually did stumble upon K+B+B once. I wanted to figure out how to pull it off during the match but I was just so low on time compared to my opponent that we just shuffled our pieces back and forth and drew by repetition.

tygxc

Yes, it is important to learn the 5 basic checkmates:
K+Q vs. K, K+R vs. K, K+B+B vs. K, K+B+N vs. K, K+N+N vs. K+P.
Even if it shows up rarely, it teaches you how to coordinate pieces.
It also teaches you the value of pieces: Q > R > B > N.
"A beginner should not be allowed to play a game of chess until he can checkmate KBN vs. K"
- Capablanca

magipi
tygxc wrote:

"A beginner should not be allowed to play a game of chess until he can checkmate KBN vs. K"
- Capablanca

Capa wasn't insane, so he never said anything like that.

RAU4ever

OK, so I read a lot of responses saying beginners need to learn how to coordinate their pieces by learning this endgame. Why? Seriously, why does a beginner need to learn it and why with this ending? How is a beginner going to benefit when their games are won and lost by big tactical mistakes? In what middlegame do you see a similar coordination between knight and bishop?

Marcyful
magipi wrote:
tygxc wrote:

"A beginner should not be allowed to play a game of chess until he can checkmate KBN vs. K"
- Capablanca

Capa wasn't insane, so he never said anything like that.

Yeah, I was having doubts if someone like Capablanca truly said something as outlandish as that.

petrk2

No, it is waste of time at your level. You should focus on tactical patterns rather than on such endgame technique that is so rare.

tygxc

#8
He said so. He also said:
"The student will do well to exercise himself methodically in this ending, as it gives a very good idea of the actual power of the pieces, and it requires foresight in order to accomplish
the mate within the fifty moves which are granted by the rules."

lfPatriotGames

I have to agree with RAU. "practically" speaking it's not important. Because practically it will rarely, if ever, be encountered. I read once that the average active chess player will encounter the KNB vs. K endgame twice in their life. 

So learning it is fun, it's challenging, but it will probably never be used practically. And I also agree with the piece co-ordination. I just can't imagine that piece co-ordination used in that endgame would apply to really many other situations. How often is THAT co-ordination needed in a middle game? 

The basics, such as R, or Q or BB endgame of course should be learned by beginners. But I think it takes a much higher level to be concerned about the more advanced endgames.

Terminator-T800

Yes it is important. Anything new you learn is going to help. Learn everything.

romannosejob

it's more important to learn the ones that occur in the middle game than the endgame ones.

It's also probably more use learning how to deal with Q vs K +B or N as these can commonly occur and an opponent can put up a resilient defense if you don't know the basic ideas.

PineappleMcPineapple
tygxc wrote:

#8
He said so. He also said:
"The student will do well to exercise himself methodically in this ending, as it gives a very good idea of the actual power of the pieces, and it requires foresight in order to accomplish
the mate within the fifty moves which are granted by the rules."

out of curiosity, what source are you using?

PhiRev

Look up game 6 from Carlsen - Nepo world championship match. It was a marathon, 136 move game, and while there are no mating patterns there, the endgame was just SO instructive, because it shows how White can go on to promote one of its pawns with K + R + N + 2  pawns (White) setup against K + Q (Black). The huge challenge is to avoid perpetual check situation by Black or a blunder where one would lose a pawn, knight or a rook and go downhill from there.

As far as practicing mating patterns, I remember this 2 book endgame series written by Reuben Fine many moons ago. I no longer have the books, but I recall being 14-15 years old back then and being very happy with the coverage of all mating patterns, as well as common endgame situations. I think what would also help would be to study complete, annotated games by grandmasters, and pay special attention to the endgames and/or parts of the game where one side is clearly winning but has to make 10-20 technically correct moves in other to force the other side to resign. Those are super instructive, and if the annotations are not sufficient, you can always run the engine analysis & play practice games with the computer from those positions.

 

Propeshka

In general, checkmate patterns are a great way to systematically approach tactics in all areas of the game. In the endgame you need to know the technique, in the middlegame you need to be on the lookout for possible tactics that can lead to checkmate. So if you know the patterns like smothered mate, opera mate, Max Lange's mate or Boden's mate for example, you'll be able to pull off combinations.

AustinBorlander
It doesn’t hurt to know!
tygxc

#16
The 1st is from his lectures, the 2nd is from "Chess Fundamentals".
It is not hard to learn. It can be taught exactly. People who say not to learn it are just lazy. It is embarassing to draw 2 pieces up.

Solmyr1234

What you need to know about Bishop + Knight mate, is that they can form sort of a 'box' against things..

 

 

I think that's good general knowledge.

Marcyful

I suppose I could give the drill a few tries.