What is a great 2 move "blind" opening for black?

I had some fun experimenting with what I called "blind openings", and that basically means - what first moves can be done that are generally safe (and hopefully strong) regardless of what the other play might open with.

The reason why I asked about playing black is because white tends to have the advantage and so I'm confident what works as a black player will work when playing white.

I've had fun with the King's Indian Defense - 1. ?? - Nf6  2. ?? - g6 and then, hopefully, the 3. ?? - Bg6 and then castling 4. ?? - O--O  but I have noticed this doesn't always work well, especially if the white player opens with King's pawn at e4 and then pushes to force the knight to move.

Anyway, the basic idea is - what would you consider to be safest 2 opening moves for either side (but especially black), and if you want to add an alternative 2 move opening, depending upon white's first move, that could be useful too.

So for example, in the case of the King's Indian defense,  I would adjust it to be something like:

If white's move is NOT e4, then do the usual Nf6 and G6 otherwise, match with the King's pawn at e5 ... and then, Nf6.

So overall, this is just an idea for a simple 2 move opening book that could work for playing white or black.

... but there are obviously better options than trying to squeeze the King's Indian defense into a game, so feel free to suggest other main 2 move opening strategies.

Good luck and have fun

What an odd question. Probably c6 d5 for black.

Perhaps d6, g6 ?

Yeah, it's slightly 'outside the box' question, and thank you for the suggestion.  I just ran 4 matches against AI Chess programs with ratings about 2800 using your suggestion, versus the slightly more complicated one I had and the results after the 3rd white move, with best move for black as estimated by Stockfish 15 were:

Your 'blind' black opening moves (c6, then d5) as rated in centipawns advantage for black were  were -.24, +.18, -.22, +.10

With the 'dual' strategy I was using of Nf6 and then g6, unless white does e4, in which case it is e5 then Nf6, here were the results of those runs:

-.06, -.53. +.12, +.53

If we compute the average of those 4 games, your suggestion score (-.24+.18-.22+.10)/4 = -.045 and mine was (.53-.53+.12-.06)=.015

So there was only an estimated loss of .06 or 1/16th of a pawn difference by using your strategy AND it's worth it because your suggestion completely ignores white opening moves, whereas mine has two 'styles'.  Congrats *applause*  I am happy to have an alternately 'double blind black opening' to be able to select at whim ... you know, in case it's one of those drunk Friday nights where we're playing blitz Chess and I don't want to think a lot. hehe

Have fun and thank you for the suggestion!  *cheers*

Not a bad suggestion.  I tested my (dual opening, depending upon whether or not white pushes the King's pawn) against Dzindo07's suggestion of c6, d5 using 4 different AI Chess programs rated about 2800 and the average score for black, in terms of pawns was .015 for mine, and -.045 for (hers/his)

I just ran the same test for your d6, g6 recommendation and got the results of +.25, -.58, -.50 and + .73, which average out to (.25-.58-.50+.73)/4= -.025 "pawns" advantage.

And you didn't even have a condition that depended upon white's opening move, so I would say your suggestion is the best/simplest so far.

... and a cool thing to think about is that would work playing white too   Thanks

So, I have 3 possible opening strategies so far *rolls a die to decide what type of game to play* LOL

Hard to go wrong with d5 & Nc6 ? I mean you can always find something odd to mess with anything,  like your example e4/e5 by white playing blind could be trouble.  IIRC blind opening alternate game ideas you couldn't move past your centerline, though, so you got say 4 or 5 moves but you can't advance past 4th for white or 5th for black.... but thats a variant. 

I ran the d5 & Nc6 black moves against 4 different Chess AI programs rated around 2800 and after white's 3rd move, the best responses (as per Stockfish 15) for the 3rd black moves gave estimates of the board for black at -0.28, -.05, -.10 and -8.02(!) - the reason for the -8 was because one program opened with the King's pawn at e4 and ate the pawn at d5, so likely it needs an alternate move for e4.  I replayed that program with d6 instead and it ended with a rating of -0.38 black pawns.  So, with that adjustment the average is -0.20 black pawns.

So far, the averages using the four suggestions here are:

1) Score=+0.015 black pawns for the dual strategy of Nf6, g6 or if white opens with e4 then e5, Nf6

2) Your suggestion (modified) score=-.20 black pawns for the dual strategy of d5, Nc6, or if white opens with e4 then d6, Nc6

4) Knights of Doom suggested d6, g6 which gave a score of -.025 black pawns

3) Dzindo07 recommended c6, d5 which gave a score of -.045 black pawns

I think you are right that such "blind" opening moves probably need to be defensive and not expand too much, or it risks capture.

Since you mentioned variants, it would be interesting if both sides selected their first couple moves without knowing what the other player would pick ... I can imagine that could lead to some interesting opening styles

Thanks for the suggestions.

There are many possibilities
1...e6 2...d6
1...e6 2...d5
1...e6 2...b6
1...d6 2...g6
1...c6 2...d5
1...c6 2...d6

After actually thinking about it, my d6/g6 idea fails against 1.b3 and 2.Bb2.

Cool suggestions.  I hadn't really thought of just testing an array of moves but your suggestions seemed like great ones to try out.  I did the same and played these against 4 different Chess program (~2800 ELO) and then checked how Stockfish 15 rated the board with the best selected 3rd move and got these results (If anyone's curious, the programs were Glaurung 2.2 JA, Fruit 2.3.1, Rhetoric 1.4.3 and Discocheck 5.2.1) 

1...e6 2...d6  -0.81, -0.22, -0.79, -0.70 (avg -0.63 black pawns)
1...e6 2...d5  +0.04, -0.21, -0.21, +0.50 (avg +0.03 black pawns)
1...e6 2...b6  -0.83, -0.52, -0.49, -0.39 (avg -0.56 black pawns)
1...d6 2...g6  -.0.53, -0.05 -0.04, -0.61 (avg -0.31 black pawns)
1...c6 2...d5  +0.10, -0.25, -0.19, -0.14 (avg -0.12 black pawns) 
1...c6 2...d6  -0.20, +0.00, -0.52, -0.41 (avg -0.28 black pawns)

I'll add another suggestion of 

1...g6 2...Bg7  +0.10, -0.18, -0.12, -0.11 (avg -0.08 black pawns)

There's also a question of how robust these openings are.  The 1...c6 2...d5 looks pretty safe, unless white does e4.    The 1...g6 2...Bg7 is probably safe but Bb2 is something to watch for.  Of course, ideally the moves should be made with consideration to white's moves but at least there's a good variety of possible opening move pairs here for people to play with

Have fun folks

Yes, that looks like a potential weakness, but overall it seems like a good strategy.  Maybe add an exception if white opens with b3?  I did that with the King's Indian defense,. 1. e4 ... was a challenge if I did 1. e4 Kf6, because he could push that pawn to 2. e5 ... and then the Knight is toast or has to run around the board.

Still 1. ... d6 2. ... g6 looks good, but maybe instead of a 'blind' opening, it needs to keep at least 'one eye open'?

I admit Chess is quite an interesting game.  Good luck, Knights of Doom

Anything moved within attack range of a pawn is at risk to some goofy combination of the opponent.   Anything not defended as well, from some pawn & queen type opening, eg pawn and bishop way out in left field.

... D6 ExD should be a form of Scandinavian that should not rate a -8.  The problem is that my suggestion puts the knight in harms way, not that it took the pawn specifically.  Taking the pawn is fine and normal, but throwing the knight away... well, you wouldn't respond that way if not doing this blind series  

That is no good, for sure.  And d6/Nf6 has a problem with e4/e5.  Maybe you MUST play 2 pawns if you are really going for 1 master sequence blind, 2 moves and 0 risk of losing more than 1 pawn.  Anything else, there is some sort of risk, unless you pull the knight into the vacated pawn hole, eg d6/ Nd7, which is just weird.  

You're right that the -8 was from the knight capture and normally that would be avoided.  The way I was doing the scoring was to let white do a 3rd move and then select the best rated 3rd black move in response, so that resulted in a knight capture.

Someone suggested c6 / d5 and that appears rather safe.  There doesn't appear to be much of a way to "cheese" that pair of moves.  It's a rather strong opening and on white's 3rd move, I think the worse that could happen is a knight / bishop exchange or capturing the queen's pawn, but the queen could recapture, unless threatened by the queen's bishop pawn.

These seem like the worst scenarios for c6 d5, but in both cases it just ends up being a rather equal exchange.

Yeah I'd agree, c6/d5 looks pretty safe.  Just a few technicalities:

It can be "stopped".  1.d4 c6 2.d5  (although that looks terrible for white).

There is some strangeness after  1.c4 c6 2.c5 d5 3.cxd5 en passant.  (or with the e pawn) that would need to be worked out.

1.c4 c6 2.Qa4 d5 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.Nc3  looks a wee bit tricky.

Or  1.c4 c6 2.e4 d5 3.cxd5 cxd5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nc3 white has terrible pawns but lots of open lines.

Basically black has to be happy playing the Caro Kann and the Slav, because that's pretty much what he's going to get 90% of the time.

@12
"1...g6 2...Bg7"
++ No: 1 d4 g6 2 Bh6? Bg7?? runs blindly into a loss.

1... e6, 2... d5 is what I would go for. Could probably also go for 1... c6, 2...d5.

1... e6, 2... d5

1. e4 e6 2. ??? d5 will get you a French.

1. d4 e6 2. ??? d5 will probably get you a QGD, against a London this is also fine, you probably want ...c5 and ...Nf6 very soon anyway.

1. c4 e6 2. ??? d5 should also lead to perfectly fine positions.

But I think this is vulnerable to something like 1. d4 2. Bg5 3. Bxd8.

1... c6, 2... d5

1. e4 c6 2. ??? d5 will get you a Caro-Kann.

1. d4 c6 2. ??? d5 should get you Slav-like positions.

1. c4 c6 2. ??? d5 should get you to either of the above.

Maybe there's also something like 1... c5, 2... e6?

1... c5, 2... e6

1. e4 c5 2. ??? e6 gets you a Sicilian.

1. d4 c5 2. ??? e6 gets you some sort of Benoni, most likely (2. dxc5 I think isn't supposed to be so good, you'd want 2... e6 against this anyway)

1. c4 c5 2. ??? e6 is some sort of symmetrical English, and I don't know the details, but I think ...e6 is a typical move anyway.

Again, this is vulnerable to 1. d4, 2. Bg5, 3. Bxd8.

Might be that you can switch the order, maybe 1... e6 and 2... c5 is better, I don't know.

@19
1 d4 e6 2 Bg5? c5?? does not work.
1 d4 c5 2 Bg5? e6?? does not work either.
1 d4 e6 2 Bg5? d5?? does not work either.

@20

Per my previous post,

1... e6, 2... d5

[...]

But I think this is vulnerable to something like 1. d4 2. Bg5 3. Bxd8.

1... c5, 2... e6

[...]

Again, this is vulnerable to 1. d4, 2. Bg5, 3. Bxd8.

@21
You wrote
"Might be that you can switch the order, maybe 1... e6 and 2... c5 is better, I don't know."
++ 1 d4 e6 2 Bg5? c5?? does not work.
1...c6 and 2...d5 works.
1...c6 and 2...d6 works.
...e6 fails to d4, Bg5, Bxd8

As a quick sidenote, I tried the c6 d5 opening in a real game with white and as you can probably guess it worked fine, as we'd likely assume.

Yes, if white does e4 then e5, that 'breaks' the opening for black.  It's been interesting to see how many of these "blind openings" seem to be affected by white opening with e4.  I guess that shows the strength of opening with the king's pawn.  To improve things, I like the idea of having a backup plan.  Maybe creating a second black defense solely intended to respond well to an e4 opening could be good?  At least if white goes to e5, it's not a major problem for black though.

The en-passant capture is an interesting possibility but the black queen can recapture ... a bit awkward but still looks quite playable.

Thanks for pointing out the questions around what the white queen and knight might do.  Yes, that looks like something to dig into further.  Nice work  

"Basically black has to be happy playing the Caro Kann and the Slav, because that's pretty much what he's going to get 90% of the time."

Again, thanks for the info.  I was beginning to get good at playing the King's Indian defense, but the other players kept messing with my plans , Caro Kann and Slav sound like more info worth digging into.