https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang
What is Zugzwang and WHY is it important?
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Mar 7, 2023
0
#3
RussBell wrote:
I.e.
Zugzwang (German for "compulsion to move", pronounced [ˈtsuːktsvaŋ]) is a situation found in chess and other turn-based games wherein one player is put at a disadvantage because of their obligation to make a move; a player is said to be "in zugzwang" when any legal move will worsen their position.
Last sentence is nonsense. If all your moves leave you in the doodoo then you're already in the doodoo. A player cannot be in a situation where all legal moves worsen their position.
Mar 9, 2023
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#4
Zugzwang is when ur opponent has no good moves and whatever they are loses the game or gives the opponent a huge advantage
Mar 9, 2023
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#5
Anonymous27165 wrote:
Zugzwang is when ur opponent has no good moves and whatever they are loses the game or gives the opponent a huge advantage
That's what we call a losing position, nothing more.
It describes, for example, Black's situation here, but few people would refer to it as zugzwang. Most people would say he's just losing.
Black to move
Sep 9, 2023
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#6
I mean that's a decent chance of a draw the way I look at it. Not good chances but better than average. The opponent is cocky and not thinking about winning, just showing off. If I had to be in a completely losing position, these are the ones I like.
Sep 14, 2024
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#7
Zugzwang is basically when no matter what move your opponent makes, it's losing for them.
Sep 14, 2024
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#8
MARattigan wrote:
RussBell wrote:
I.e.
Zugzwang (German for "compulsion to move", pronounced [ˈtsuːktsvaŋ]) is a situation found in chess and other turn-based games wherein one player is put at a disadvantage because of their obligation to make a move; a player is said to be "in zugzwang" when any legal move will worsen their position.
Last sentence is nonsense. If all your moves leave you in the doodoo then you're already in the doodoo. A player cannot be in a situation where all legal moves worsen their position.
Oh yes they can. You forget about blundering into zugszwang. I've won countless endgames where it was equal, but my opponent blundered and allowed zugswang. I myself have been guilty of it.
You're also forgetting about the first part of the definition of zugswang, which is if you could PASS on your turn, you would be equal (or even better/winning in some situations). Your example with the 4 queens is just a losing position, not a zugzwang position.
Sep 15, 2024
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#9
FullTiltBunny wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
RussBell wrote:
I.e.
Zugzwang (German for "compulsion to move", pronounced [ˈtsuːktsvaŋ]) is a situation found in chess and other turn-based games wherein one player is put at a disadvantage because of their obligation to make a move; a player is said to be "in zugzwang" when any legal move will worsen their position.
Last sentence is nonsense. If all your moves leave you in the doodoo then you're already in the doodoo. A player cannot be in a situation where all legal moves worsen their position.
Oh yes they can.
Strictly speaking, if a position is already checkmate or stalemate, then the player having the move is in a situation where all legal moves worsen his position, because in those cases he has no legal moves and the statement, "all legal moves worsen his position", is vacuously true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuous_truth). That is to say you can't find a legal move that doesn't worsen his position, because you can't find a legal move in the first place.
If the player in question doesn't have the move or the game is terminated, then he still may have "legal" moves according to FIDE art. 3.10.1, but I would submit that since they can't be played they have no effect on his position and, in particular, can't worsen it. But again if he has no legal moves, "all legal moves worsen his position", is vacuously true.
So to that extent my assertion was incorrect.
Otherwise, oh no they can't.
If a player has legal moves and can play them according to the rules in force, then not all of those moves worsen his position. If all moves lose then he's already in a losing position and if all moves don't win then he's already not in a winning position. It's impossible for all his moves to worsen his position.
You forget about blundering into zugszwang. I've won countless endgames where it was equal, but my opponent blundered and allowed zugswang. I myself have been guilty of it.
I don't believe I am forgetting about it.
You're also forgetting about the first part of the definition of zugswang, which is if you could PASS on your turn, you would be equal (or even better/winning in some situations).
Neither am I forgetting about that. The fact is that the Wikipaedia definition is not a definition in two parts, it's two inconsistent definitions. The second,
a player is said to be "in zugzwang" when any legal move will worsen their position.
is nonsensical.
Your example with the 4 queens is just a losing position, not a zugzwang position.
As indeed I said (though I make it 3).
Posted in reply to @Anonymous27165's definition
Zugzwang is when ur opponent has no good moves and whatever they are loses the game or gives the opponent a huge advantage
which does define just a losing position.
(If your opponent has an advantage that means he's winning if it's a real advantage, as opposed to a perceived advantage. If you admit perceived advantages, which the qualification "huge" might be taken to imply, then you have only a psychological meaning assigned to "zugzwang".)
Sep 15, 2024
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#10
shigemanu wrote:
Zugzwang is basically when no matter what move your opponent makes, it's losing for them.
Then you're not in zugzwang (and neither, necessarily, is your opponent). You're winning.
White is in zugzwang here, but he can't lose.
White to play
That's a half point zugzwang.
I just put this out and I need honest feedback on if I explained these well or not.
https://www.chess.com/blog/Dumbluck626/the-path-to-victory-when-youre-a-pawn-up-calculation-part-x