Happy draw or could´ve gone for the win?

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FernandoRondelli

Hello, everybody. So I went into this losing endgame and was able to save a draw. The thing is that I´m wondering if I could have gone for the win after forking the king and rook. I realized that I don´t really know how to identify when a Q+K v Q+K endgame is a draw and when one can force a win (blunders aside), so I´ll be happy if someone can help me out here. 

(I know that there are probably several bad moves along the game, both by me and my opponent, and if anyone is willing to comment/suggest on any, obviously I´ll gladly accept that too. =] )

Cheers 
 
 
 
 
 

notmtwain

Happy draw.

You need to look this kind of endgame up in a tablebase to understand the best play. You can do that (ike I did) and find out how you were lost until white played 69 Kf7 (instead of a winning line with either Kd8 or Kf8) and then drawn until you played 72..Qg8+ instead of 72.. Qe7+ but then drawn again after 74 Kg3.  

I'm sorry but there are too many possible variations for me to copy them all down.

Overall, I think you played very well. I didn't see any winning positions for you.

imirak

Can you explain briefly why it is not possible for the White king to maneuver into a corner at h1 and block checks with the rook and queen? Since the black king is on the a8-h1 diagonal, any check along it could be blocked by the white queen, forcing a queen trade.

notmtwain
imirak wrote:

Can you explain briefly why it is not possible for the White king to maneuver into a corner at h1 and block checks with the rook and queen? Since the black king is on the a8-h1 diagonal, any check along it could be blocked by the white queen, forcing a queen trade.

If you looked at the game, you can see how white can't escape black's checks.

If he tried to get his king to the opposite corner, far away from his queen, in order to get his rook's help, he would probably lose it or the queen with check.

imirak

Obviously Qc2+ is the threat facing Black if his king gets on the 2nd rank, and that check can be made by the Queen traversing from h7 (to check the king at h3) and c7 (to check the king at g3).

But what if the king traverses from f4 to e3-d3-c2 to protect the rook?

74. Ke3 Qa7+  (to prevent Kd2)

75. Kd3, then ??? to prevent Kd2?

imirak

Just got home and plugged this position into Stockfish and it immediately evaluated the position as  +44.0 for White.

The White king made a bee-line for the rook, cozied up to the 1st rank and then blocked with his queen. Stockfish forces the queen trade on the 6th move:

1. ... Qf8+ 2. Ke3 Qe7+ 3. Kd2 Qg5+ 4. Kc2 Qg6+ 5. Kc1 Kc4 6. Qc2+

Houdini calls it an inevitable win for White after 5 moves, but takes longer to trade queens:

1. ... Qf8+ 2. Ke3 Qe7+ 3. Kd3 Qd7 4. Qh5+ Kc6+ 5. Kc2

notmtwain
imirak wrote:

Just got home and plugged this position into Stockfish and it immediately evaluated the position as  +44.0 for White.

The White king made a bee-line for the rook, cozied up to the 1st rank and then blocked with his queen. Stockfish forces the queen trade on the 6th move:

1. ... Qf8+ 2. Ke3 Qe7+ 3. Kd2 Qg5+ 4. Kc2 Qg6+ 5. Kc1 Kc4 6. Qc2+

Houdini calls it an inevitable win for White after 5 moves, but takes longer to trade queens:

1. ... Qf8+ 2. Ke3 Qe7+ 3. Kd3 Qd7 4. Qh5+ Kc6+ 5. Kc2

So your answer is also... that you agree witht he poster that he was lost, as he said, and should be quite happy with a draw.



imirak
notmtwain wrote:
So your answer is also... that you agree witht he poster that he was lost, as he said, and should be quite happy with a draw.

Absolutely. This material imbalance was a clear win for White so he is very fortunate to get a draw out of it. I was just originally surprised by the idea that Black could force a draw by perpetual check.

preis

finais Q+K vs. Q+K (sem nenhum peão) são sempre empates, a única forma de ganhar é se o adversário alinhar a dama e o rei de forma que você conseguisse dar um cheque no rei tomando a rainha do outro lado sem que o rei adversário conseguisse proteger a rainha... talvez tenha ficado meio confuso, então fica ai uma ilustração:

preis

Outro "espeto" mais raro seria esse aqui:

alias muito bonito o seu empate =) com o cheque perpétuo, tomar a torre também deveria ser um empate (contanto que você evitasse esses espetos no seu rei), mas o seu método é mais forçado, achei estaile!

preis

Outra posição rara que também é uma vitória:


Se o rei tiver duas colunas para recuar é um empate:

E se o rei conseguir voltar a tempo também é empate: