I need help, the chess kind...

If someone has a computer (chess) program that can evaluate the following positions for me I would really appreciate it. (as I do not have one). My curiousity is in which move is best and by how much...

The first position uses 5) Ne2 --- a continuation I made (sorta - I'm sure somebody has played this variation before although I have not seen any games with it played). Actually the move order is a little off since this is suppose to be the "Danish Gambit", I altered from move #3...so I guess you can say it is by transposition...

1. e4 e5 2. d4 exd4 3. Bc4 3. Nc6 4. c3 dxc3 5. Ne2 5...

The second position uses a more conventinal 5) Nf3 --- a variation I have played in the past although never actually found to be of "great" advantage...I have managed to win games with Nf3 and lose some games too...

1. e4 e5 2. d4 exd4 3. Bc4 3. Nc6 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nf3 5...

What are the lines given by the computer and how does the computer rate each line...who has the advantage (white or black) and by how much...(+/-/=) etc...

Hi, I am not at home right now but when I get there I will set these up and see what I think. (I could do it in my head if it were the older notation style, KBP-KB4, etc.) I will probably get back with you tomorrow. I am always looking for interesting alternatives to openings.

I don't have any chess program, nor am I anywhere close to being a master, but I'd be happy to play a game against you starting with those moves, and then seeing where the game goes?  Just an idea!

There are plenty of good free engines out there. Have you looked into getting one for yourself? Two that come to mind right off the bat are Crafty and Fruit.

I just want to thank everyone that responds and help out in any way...I love this site because people are so helpful...any help is appreciated, trust me.

How can I get my hands on Crafty or Fruit? (a little concerned about the names, but if you say they are for chess, then I think I will trust you...this time).

My Crafty says both are -+, 5. Ne2 with -1.82 and 5. Nf3 with -1.49 . (I think that says more about crafty than your opening.)

Thanks for doing that, definitely helps me. Sound like the moves are pretty equal. Slight advantage to black, although I don't really see why; white is set up well for an attack and black has to take time and develop his pieces still. Anyway,...

What do you mean by "that says more about Crafty than your opening."

BTW, does Crafty suggest continuation lines? If so, can you please post them here?

Okay, I'm back. Neither move is the best one. I am not using a computer except for the questionable one inside my head, but 5. Nxc3 is what I would do. Here's why: 1) The move 5. Nf3 does nothing to address the attacking pawn's advanced position, which is of major importance right now. And 5. Ne2 is weak, because when Black responds with 5...cxb2, the Rook is being attacked, plus Black's aim is to have his Bishop at b4 creating check, which afterwards White looses a Rook. 2) Nxc3 also preserves the rook pawn and the knight pawn (the other two queenside pawns already are taken) and pawns aren't simply things to throw away casually. 3) It removes the nasty pawn invading your territory. I would not take it with your knight pawn for then you have two isolated pawns, and one can't then backup the other.

So, we'd have: 4. c3 ... dxc3; 5. Nxc3 ... Bb4; 6. Bd3, and White has a much easier time of things.

Also, on an earlier move, 3. Bc4 is not as good a move as Bd3, because it not only halts the pawn's march, it adds protection to the center pawn already out there.

Finally, if you are going to put two pawns into the center by moving them both two spaces, do the Queen pawn then the King pawn, and White doesn't have as many problems.

Now, I was looking at your current game with Chessman59561. 1. f4 is a very interesting move, however it can be a bit pre-emptive because Black can respond with 1 ... d5. This gives Black a much better game than his weak e6 move, which is way too passive for your innovative opening. Since Black won't be too sure where you are going with it, staying in the center and getting a foothold on the fifth rank is imperative for Black.

All that said, I would love to play a game sometime. too; after Vance917 gets a shot.

"1) The move 5. Nf3 does nothing to address the attacking pawn's advanced position, which is of major importance right now. And 5. Ne2 is weak, because when Black responds with 5...cxb2, the Rook is being attacked, plus Black's aim is to have his Bishop at b4 creating check, which afterwards White loses a Rook."

~~~~~

Ok, the above board is the move sequence I posted first...Ne2 is my play instead of the natural Nf3...

1) e4, e5 2) d4 (the first pawn gambit), exd4 3) Bc4 (natural move for Danish Gambit is c3), Nc6 (protecting the pawn on d4) 4) c3 (continuing w/ the Danish after the delay), dxc3 5) Ne2 (attacking the c3 pawn a third time)...

I do not see how the Rook (a1)  is loss; after Bb4, Nbxc3 (or Nexc3) takes care of that problem...or bxc3 (not the best as it isolates the pawn on the c-file and a-file, but it keeps the Rook). Even 0-0 (King-side Castling), takes care of that ---> cxb2, Bxb2 and the black-Bishop on b4 is just there. So, in my opinion the Rook is in no real danger here; plenty of options...

BTW, it was intentional that I played the King's pawn first and then the Queens pawn. It is the Danish Gambit after all; Bd3 in my opinion is defensive, I am not defensive and the Danish is not meant to be either...it is for a quick attacking game. I am not interested in halting the advance of that pawn in any case. Actually, I am inviting it (like a predator lures it's prey, allowing it to think it is safe; by the time it realizes it is in mortal danger, it is too late).

As for the game with Chessman, I will look at it and I will tell you what I think...Although I don't ask for any suggestions on ongoing games. If I remember correctly I am winning/won that game already; I'll look though.

*wish I knew how to make the example have multiple tree/variations of moves all in one example...is that possible?

Ok, the game with Chessman is over; I am just waiting for him to move his King then mate...so comment on that game all you like, he is just stalling the inevitable. Anyway, that 1) f4 is Bird's Opening...nothing close to the opening here with the Danish Gambit so that does not "give me suggestions on how to play"; like I said, that game is over anyway.

But the Bird's Opening is totally another matter compared to the Danish. The Bird's Opening is probably something a GM will be more willing to play than the Danish Gambit...I am just guessing here as I am not a GM, but the Danish gambles too many pawns away and as you know, at the GM level a 1-pawn advantage is hard to overcome (at least between GMs).

Well, Crafty doesn't regard it as a slight advantage, but rather a (near) winning advantage for white; his evaluation is that black is up 1.82 and 1.49 pawns respectively.
But I'm always sceptical towards Crafty's evaluations, especially when analysing an opening. Crafty will give a rather materialistic view (which is quite typical for engines) unless white has a concrete short-term plan that gives him the advantage. Actually, I was expecting it to come up with such an evaluation.

The problem is that engines have a horizon. If there's a 10-move combination and your engine can 'look' ahead 9 moves, it will evaluate the position like the combination isn't there at all. This may not seem so important, but Crafty for example would recommend a move that wins a pawn but completely ruins your pawn structure, because it can't see far enough ahead to see that in the long run the other side will regain the pawn (or more).

Basically, I only use Crafty (which is one of the weaker engines around - if you're really looking for quality analysis, you're probably better off with Rybka) to quickly scan through my games to see if I made any clear tactical mistakes.

So, the fact that Crafty evaluates an opening where white sacrifices two pawns for a big lead in development as white just being near two pawns down says more about crafty than the opening.


By the way, I do agree with Crafty that 5. Nf3 is better than 5. Ne2. The knight is simply better placed on f3 and it's not so important that you can't play f2-f4.

Being aggressive doesn't necessarily mean attackattackattackattack. Playing towards the center allows for more aggressive play. Allowing one pawn to gobble up everything in its path isn't being aggressive for the one being gobbled. I just don't think it is wise to let that pawn go further than the 4th rank, but to each their own. As far as the rook goes, I meant before Black's pawn takes b2, Bb4 makes a "check" when the pawn is taken. And whether or not you block check, if you do not take the pawn then, the rook is gone and even if you take the pawn then, you only have one pawn on that side of the board now. I do not see how that is an advantage for you.

Allowing cxb2 after the Bb4 is a blunder; if the person playing the Danish doesn't know this part then they probably should not play the Danish and instead learn more tactics; forks, discovered attack, discovered check, etc...

What I am saying is that after Bb4, white has plenty of response to prevent this from happening. I will be happy to play the game with you soon (maybe starting next week) with the opening moves for both white & black played to move #5) Ne2...with black to move.

*The reason I do not play the Danish Gambit any longer is that black can refuse to follow along at any point in time and not capture the b2 pawn; it is such a long gambit line that black sometimes does not even know the whole gambit...

Neither is a good move.

 If you would care to elaborate, that would be appreciated. What you said is just so...simple.

It means he thinks there is a better fifth move than 5. Nf3 or Ne2.
I assume he means 5. Nxc3.

Yes, neither of the original proffered moves is the best for White. 5.Nxc3 is much better. And, in replty to an earlier responce, even if the Rook isn't taken, to let the Black pawn get to the 7th rank ruins White's queenside. If Black can attack White's Bishops, then the open board is to White's disadvntage. With this in mind, I would suggest you check out an alternative approach to the whole thing at: http://www.chess.com/opening/eco/C21_Danish_Gambit_Declined_Sorensen_Defense

The Danish Declined is a better line of play for Black, for obvoius reasons.

 Why is Nxc3 so much better? What are the lines that says so? Where can black take advantage of the other move other than Nxc3?

 What you wrote seems a little contradictory. First you say that it is bad for white to let black take so many pawns and work his way down to the second rank of white (or in your case/thinking, black's 7th rank). However, you finish your post with "The Danish Declined is a better line of play for Black, for obvoius reasons", which is saying that don't take the pawns (if playing black) because it's a better line for black. Decline the gambit to get better play (as black)! But you said before that you should go ahead and take the pawns all the way down to the 7th and ruin white's Queen-side!

BTW: This is the stats for the Danish Declined you posted.

Danish Gambit: Declined, Sorensen Defense (C21)

1.e4e52.d4exd43.c3d5

371 Games in Database (view games)

RESULT:

I do not see black scoring better than white here. You can argue that it is pretty much even, but not better for black by any means.

This is the stats for the Danish Accepted that you believe is so bad for white to allow.

Danish Gambit: Accepted (C21)

1.e4e52.d4exd43.c3dxc34.Bc4cxb25.Bxb2

233 Games in Database (view games)

RESULT:

If black follows your suggestion of running his pawn amok all the way down to the b2 square, he/she loses way more than win or draw.

So if you are purely looking at the stats like you want to, then I say accepting the gambit is bad for black. If you are playing white, allow black run amok (like you suggested).