what criteria(s) determine initiative

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joseph1000000

What criteria(s)  could be used to determine  who has the initiative?

Your contributions are highly valued. Please feel free to explain yourself clearly.  Thanks for inputs. 

stiggling

Off the top of my head, something like being able to make threats while pursuing your natural play.

So for example lets say the opponent has a weak king and you maneuver to attack it.

Sometimes those maneuvers will create threats along the way. If so, then I'd call that initiative.

But other times, your building-up moves can be ignored, and the opponent e.g. spends his time preparing for counter play. In this case you wouldn't have an initiative.

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I guess another way to say it is when you can force your opponent to respond to your moves for a protracted period of time. However in my mind "initiative" is more than that, because if you're playing poor moves just to force a response then it's sort of a fake initiative. That's why I include the criteria that it must also be pursuing some logical play. Attacking the king is one, but it could just as easily be attacking a pawn structure, or a sector of the board e.g. trying to infiltrate on the queenside.

joseph1000000

 stiggling

Off the top of my head, something like being able to make threats while pursuing your natural play.

So for example lets say the opponent has a weak king and you maneuver to attack it.

Sometimes those maneuvers will create threats along the way. If so, then I'd call that initiative.

But other times, your building-up moves can be ignored, and the opponent e.g. spends his time preparing for counter play. In this case you wouldn't have an initiative.    

 

So terms that summarize part of your argument would be: "forced move(s)" and "threatful move(s)"?

Are there other criteria(s) that could be specified? Can we isolate them in a specific term or expression?

joseph1000000

Sorry  stiggling I could not copy

all your entry.

joseph1000000

Also "not blundering " comes to mind. 

stiggling
joseph1000000 wrote:

 Are there other criteria(s) that could be specified? Can we isolate them in a specific term or expression?

I don't know. Usually when other people comment they have good ideas too. Someone else will probably have something useful to add or their own take on it etc.

joseph1000000
stiggling wrote:
joseph1000000 wrote:

 Are there other criteria(s) that could be specified? Can we isolate them in a specific term or expression?

I don't know. Usually when other people comment they have good ideas too. Someone else will probably have something useful to add or their own take on it etc.

 

So far three terms come from your comments: forced move,  threatful move and non-blunder move. Let's see if there are inputs. Thank you so far for your share. 

joseph1000000

That must be : "more input".

stiggling

Maybe post it in the general forums?
Posting it in the analysis forum was fine, but maybe you'd get more replies in the general forum.

joseph1000000
stiggling wrote:

Maybe post it in the general forums?
Posting it in the analysis forum was fine, but maybe you'd get more replies in the general forum.

 

I thought this is the general forum?

ArtNJ

Initiative is the ability to impose your own plan, and force your opponent to respond to your plan.  For example, if your position has offensive buildup going on, and your opponent feels compelled to make defensive moves and try to defuse the situation, you have initiative.  

IMKeto
joseph1000000 wrote:

What criteria(s)  could be used to determine  who has the initiative?

Your contributions are highly valued. Please feel free to explain yourself clearly.  Thanks for inputs. 

If you have, or can create threats that cannot be ignored?  You have the initiative.

joseph1000000
IMBacon wrote:
joseph1000000 wrote:

What criteria(s)  could be used to determine  who has the initiative?

Your contributions are highly valued. Please feel free to explain yourself clearly.  Thanks for inputs. 

If you have, or can create threats that cannot be ignored?  You have the initiative.

 

Is that the only condition,  or there are other criteria that might have not come up yet in this discussion, as well?

If you blunder do you lose the initiative? Or,  if you force a move on your opponent you get to hold the initiative?

 

joseph1000000
ArtNJ wrote:

Initiative is the ability to impose your own plan, and force your opponent to respond to your plan.  For example, if your position has offensive buildup going on, and your opponent feels compelled to make defensive moves and try to defuse the situation, you have initiative.  

 


Is that the only condition,  or there are other criteria that might have not come up yet in this discussion, as well?

If you blunder do you lose the initiative? Or,  if you force a move on your opponent you get to hold the initiative?

 

IMKeto
joseph1000000 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
joseph1000000 wrote:

What criteria(s)  could be used to determine  who has the initiative?

Your contributions are highly valued. Please feel free to explain yourself clearly.  Thanks for inputs. 

If you have, or can create threats that cannot be ignored?  You have the initiative.

 

Is that the only condition,  or there are other criteria that might have not come up yet in this discussion, as well?

If you blunder do you lose the initiative? Or,  if you force a move on your opponent you get to hold the initiative?

 

What more do you want?

If you have, or can create something in the position, that forces your opponent to react to it, you have the initiative.

The initiative is the capacity to make threats.

"As the pieces are set on the board both sides have the same position and the same amount of material. White, however, has the move, and the move is this case means 'the initiative', and the initiative, other things being equal, is an advantage. Now this advantage must be kept as long as possible, and should only be given up if some other advantage, material or positional, is obtained in its place. White, according to the principles already laid down, develops his pieces as fast as possible, but in so doing he also tries to hinder his opponent's development, by applying pressure wherever possible. He tries first of all to control the center, and failing this to obtain some positional advantage that will make it possible for him to keep on harassing the enemy. He only relinquishes the initiative when he gets for it some material advantage under such favorable conditions as to make him feel assured that he will, in turn, be able to withstand his adversary's thrust; and finally, through his  superiority of material, once more resume the initiative, which alone can give him the victory. This last assertion is self-evident, since, in order to win the game, the opposing King must be driven to a position where he is attacked without having any way to escape. Once the pieces have been properly developed the resulting positions may vary in character. It may be that a direct attack against the King is in order; or that it is a case of improving a position already advantageous; or, finally, that some material can be gained at the cost of relinquishing the initiative for a more or less prolonged period."

-- Capablanca in Chess Fundamentals, Chapter 4.

IMKeto

How do you fight for the initiative and, most importantly, when?

The initiative means a lot in chess and both players start fighting for it since the opening. Once the pieces are already developed it is the time to start creating threats until one side forces the other to adopt a defensive position. In order to take over the initiative, we must seek for active moves that create immediate threats.

joseph1000000

Well put! Thank you. 

bong711

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chess.com/amp/article/initiative-1

joseph1000000
Optimissed wrote:

Criteria is actually the plural of criterion. That gives me the initiative.

The initiative consists of pressure on an opponent's position and the resulting freedom of movement that brings, along with the ability and time to create more threats.

 

Thank you for granted comment too. 

In this thread I have been trying to specify the elements,  for the lack of better term,  to break it down to criteria. So far, it seems to come down to "forced move" or "threatful move". 

This terming clarifies the meaning in my opinion.  That is what I was after. 

To further clarify the meaning one could say: Initiative is having a threatful, non-blundering move against the opponent. 

joseph1000000

Correction: granted must be grammar.  Sorry.