50 move rule question

The official FIDE rules (paragraph 9.3) say that:

"The game is drawn (...) if (...) the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture." (Emphasis mine)

I'm confused by the word "and". This implies clearly that both conditions must have been met, not just one. Is this the case?

I came upon this while studying the Philidor position, specifically from this diagram:

As it is stated, the FIDE rule implies that as long as White remembers to move his pawn every 49th move, this game can go on for over 200 moves without Black being able to claim a draw.

Surely this can't be right, can it?

Yes it is correct. In combination with the threefold repetition of position draw, you seldom see 100+ move games.

Your reading of the rule is correct. In order to claim a draw under the 50-move rule, both of those conditions must be satisfied.

I've looked into this a bit more:

The official rules of the Dutch chess federation have an extra paragraph on this, saying that after 75 moves without either a pawn move or a capture, the game is a draw. Other national federations may have something similar.

I've spent my entire life thinking that the 50 move rule was either/or. You learn something every day.

What the rule means is that as soon as there is a capture (or a pawn move), the move count for this rule starts again at zero. Otherwise, as soon as you reach 50 moves it's a draw. (NOT A) AND (NOT B) is the same as NOT (A OR B).

No.

It can go on for ever under current FIDE basic rules because they have removed the 50 move and triple repetition rules from that section.

Under competition rules it depends on the side to move and the current 50 move ply count exactly how long the game can go on before Black can claim a draw. You don't say which side to move, but I assume your source said ply count of 0 and White to move. With ply count 0 and Black to move White can wait to his 50th. move to capture the rook or move the pawn.

Because the two actions (pawn move or a capture) are negating factors which prevent a draw, it does not matter if they are described as "and" or "or". 

The 75 move rule is a FIDE rule. Here it is 9.6.2     https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012018

But Black can always claim a draw before the 75 move rule takes effect. (The draw after 75 moves is automatic. Also after 50 moves with most chess software, but that's just bad programming.)

You don't really need FIDE if you're not talking about competition. But the rules are still basic rules of chess and any serious player will still claim draws under those situations.

America is different, of course. But in the rest of the world FIDE would normally be taken as the authority for the basic rules in informal games.

That's just it, if you're appealing to FIDE for the rules, you must be looking at it as a competition. The draw rules are part of chess, regardless, just in casual games, they aren't exactly that big of a deal. Similar to touch move and illegal moves.

In more casual games at the club, we still play by all the normal draw rules, but generally, touch move and illegal moves aren't penalized and we even occasionally allow takebacks on interesting games.

If I'm playing a game in the pub and there's a dispute over the rules we'd look up the FIDE handbook online. I wouldn't accept a claim under the 50 move or triple repetition rules these days (not that it's ever happened).

When you say the draw rules are part of chess, I think those particular rules are part of US chess only in informal games. USCF didn't remove the rules from its "Learn to play chess" document when FIDE scrapped them from its basic rules.

I don't think you get illegal moves under FIDE basic rules. If a player release his piece on a square that is not a legal move or part of a legal move he has not yet "made" his move. Under competition rules he makes an illegal move if he "completes" a move before it is "made".

:)

edit: removed a section; was led astray by Google's linking to the published PDF which I assumed would be the most recent. But it's still unlikely the intent is for neither of those draws to be claimable, even under basic play structure; is the expectation that people just keep playing until they get tired of shuffling pieces?

I perfectly understand illegal moves, even under the Basic Rules.

The 75 move rules only applies to KNRvKR endgames which were thought to be drawn until computers showed that a mate was possible in more than 50 moves.

On this site as in OTB a draw has to be claimed, unlike with stalemate, insufficient material and repetition.

Here is a game where the draw was not claimed immediately but a few moves later when mate was imminent. Chess: DerekDHarvey vs predadan79 - 326504024 - Chess.com

.

The draws here are automatic and have been for a few years.

edit: though maybe Daily games still have the claim requirements, or it went back to claim.

In my OP I linked to another document on the FIDE site, which has no section 9.6.2. Apparently there are different rule sets on their website. (A bit sloppy, that is...)

I have no interest in looking up which of these two versions is the correct one. I just like these obscure rules and the discussion that can result from them.

Another question I had on this subject has been answered by another poster: apparently you can play beyond whatever move limit is in effect, and only when a loss is imminent, claim the draw.