Attack or Defend?

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rapidcitychess

I have been an attacker, and am always amazed when I, to quote Silman, "zip" through the games of Alekhine, Breyer, Kasparov, Tal, Shirov, and Morphy. I always feel like this: How do they know where to start? Like this:

(Like an Alekhine game.)

rapidcitychess

So what about DEFENSE? Do people win by defense? We tend to think of Viktor Korchnoi and Ulf Anderssen as defenders who win, right?

Well, we must think of Steinitz now.


STEINITZ LAW

To win, you must attack. The defender will not win unless the attack was premature, or the attacker made a mistake.

Therefore, we must say counter attack instead of defend.

THE LAWS OF ATTACK

 

  1. Make sure you opponent cannot counter attack.
  2. If the center is blocked, then look the way the pawns point! That's the way you must attack. Whether the King is there or not.
  3. If you have control of the center, then attacking can be one of your major options.
  4. If your opponent can open the center, or gain control of the center, then concentrate on the center, not attack!
  5. If you have an attack that doesn't follow the "rules", then it must be caculated very carefully.


Hope this sparks some intresting disscusion!

 

~Happy Chess~

 

 

orangehonda

Solved it in <5 seconds ;)

But I'm familiar with this puzzle so it doesn't really count Smile

orangehonda

And of course you can win without an attack, you can positionally squeeze your opponent who as a consequence won't be able to keep from losing material.  After that the natural next step is a matting set up, but it's hardly an attack when there are hardly any defenders or counter attacking chances, more of a clean up operation Wink

Of course that style isn't for everyone.  Alekhine has some brilliant games for sure.

klamarson

Yes you can win by defense.ALthough you have to have a good plan and  strategy  for how long in the game you are gonna defend for.Look at the alekhine line e4 and Nf6 reply.White can attack and chess back the knight.But as black manouvres his pieces,the strategy is to defend here and at the same time undermining whites pawn structure.

So the idea is to always defend with a plan and dont defend all through the game regardless of the colour you are playing.This is the reason alot of some players even get bad results in games.As you defend,you look for weaknesses by your opponent and then counterattack.Even the great players of old mastered this and thats the reason they were successful.

Therefore yes people can win by  a well defense game plan strategy.

rapidcitychess
orangehonda wrote:

And of course you can win without an attack, you can positionally squeeze your opponent who as a consequence won't be able to keep from losing material.  After that the natural next step is a matting set up, but it's hardly an attack when there are hardly any defenders or counter attacking chances, more of a clean up operation

Of course that style isn't for everyone.  Alekhine has some brilliant games for sure.


Positional squeeze is attack.

 

You cannot win by attack!! If you defend the whole game you won't ever checkmate the King!

Imagine this: You've been defending the whole game and eventually:

Now you have to attack!

 

 

 

 

 

COUNTER ATTACK IS ATTACK!

rapidcitychess
uhohspaghettio wrote:
klamarson wrote:

Yes you can win by defense.ALthough you have to have a good plan and  strategy  for how long in the game you are gonna defend for.Look at the alekhine line e4 and Nf6 reply.White can attack and chess back the knight.But as black manouvres his pieces,the strategy is to defend here and at the same time undermining whites pawn structure.

So the idea is to always defend with a plan and dont defend all through the game regardless of the colour you are playing.This is the reason alot of some players even get bad results in games.As you defend,you look for weaknesses by your opponent and then counterattack.Even the great players of old mastered this and thats the reason they were successful.

Therefore yes people can win by  a well defense game plan strategy.


You can defend until the very end if you're okay with a draw though, but I agree with the rest of your post. Always look for how the opponent is over-committing themselves so you can counter-attack. And to hell with the defensive plan if you spot an undeniable advantage by doing something else. 

I find that winding down the clock can go hand-in-hand with being defensive. When your opponent is trying to attack your position, but you have every little pathway sealed up, he can get immersed in trying to look for pathways that he will never be able to exploit and run out of time.

Sometimes as black against a good player I end up in a very closed position moving a piece back and forth to the same squares behind a pawn fortress, with no intention of creating anything.


 

Exactly! You must attack at a point! But draining the clock is not "real" chess. Play the board, not the clock.

rapidcitychess
uhohspaghettio wrote:
rapidcitychess wrote:
orangehonda wrote:

And of course you can win without an attack, you can positionally squeeze your opponent who as a consequence won't be able to keep from losing material.  After that the natural next step is a matting set up, but it's hardly an attack when there are hardly any defenders or counter attacking chances, more of a clean up operation

Of course that style isn't for everyone.  Alekhine has some brilliant games for sure.


Positional squeeze is attack.

 

You cannot win by attack!! If you defend the whole game you won't ever checkmate the King!

Imagine this: You've been defending the whole game and eventually:

 

Now you have to attack!

 

 

 

 

 

 

COUNTER ATTACK IS ATTACK!


I suppose it comes down to semantics, if you count that as an attack then the idea of "defending the entire game" wouldn't make any sense at all. 

If someone makes a statement such as "you shouldn't defend for the entire game", one would have to assume they are trying to make some type of point, right? They are hardly making a point if that is their idea of not defending.... they hardly think anyone would be stupid enough to "defend" that type of position as white.  

"Exactly! You must attack at a point! But draining the clock is not "real" chess. Play the board, not the clock."

Who said I wanted to play real chess? If I'm afraid of my opponent any type of chess is usually fine for me. I don't have to play real chess, chess is not about entertainment you know... just like football (soccer to Americans). If he thinks he can take me down, bring it on.


If the attack is impossible, then the attack is premature.

 

Other Steinitz Law

 

When you have the advantage, you must attack! If you attack without the advantage, then that attack is doomed to fail.

Therefore, if you are defending against a premature attack, then at some point you will gain the advantage. The you MUST attack!

 

If you checkmate, you are attacking the opponents king! Then at some point, you must attack!!

rapidcitychess

BTW, attack is not a crazy Tal attack. Attack is just a term that means you are actively playing for something. That can be checkmate or a positional weakness.

MaddFunn

I loose every game i play defensively, so thats why i choose smei aggressive openings, and i try to stay in the middlegame instead of heading to an endgame :P

orangehonda
rapidcitychess wrote:
orangehonda wrote:

And of course you can win without an attack, you can positionally squeeze your opponent who as a consequence won't be able to keep from losing material.  After that the natural next step is a matting set up, but it's hardly an attack when there are hardly any defenders or counter attacking chances, more of a clean up operation

Of course that style isn't for everyone.  Alekhine has some brilliant games for sure.


Positional squeeze is attack.

 

You cannot win by attack!! If you defend the whole game you won't ever checkmate the King!

Imagine this: You've been defending the whole game and eventually:

 

Now you have to attack!

 

 

 

 

 

 

COUNTER ATTACK IS ATTACK!


See the text in red Tongue out

CPawn

I am a defensive player, and i find it works well against younger players.  Younger players are genrally less patient and will do pretty much anything to get the game going.  So i sit back and wait for them to over commit. 

orangehonda
CPawn wrote:

I am a defensive player, and i find it works well against younger players.  Younger players are genrally less patient and will do pretty much anything to get the game going.  So i sit back and wait for them to over commit. 


This and going into endgames are two ways masters can easily crush a field of class players without even having to calculate Sealed

I know some  are heavy into opening theory and sharp attacks -- but if I ever make master this is more my style, play solid and wait for them to self destruct.

orangehonda
rapidcitychess wrote:

I have been an attacker, and am always amazed when I, to quote Silman, "zip" through the games of Alekhine, Breyer, Kasparov, Tal, Shirov, and Morphy. I always feel like this: How do they know where to start? Like this:

(Like an Alekhine game.)

 


BTW this isn't so mysterious if you think of it as a deflection sac.   True, it looks fancy because it's the queen, but if all your other pieces are set up for the attack, the one that's not particularly useful can look for a deflection sac, it doesn't matter which piece it is.

Would I be happy to play this in a game?  Heck yeah, it's flashy and a forced win.  Just trying to answer your "how do they know where to start"  Obviously seeing and remembering patterns like this help.  Of course the most impressive part is setting it up, often the execution we puzzle over in tactic books the master had seen long since.

CPawn
orangehonda wrote:
CPawn wrote:

I am a defensive player, and i find it works well against younger players.  Younger players are genrally less patient and will do pretty much anything to get the game going.  So i sit back and wait for them to over commit. 


This and going into endgames are two ways masters can easily crush a field of class players without even having to calculate

I know some  are heavy into opening theory and sharp attacks -- but if I ever make master this is more my style, play solid and wait for them to self destruct.


 Good points!  So many young players are so into playing tactics, attacking play, being agressive, and such.  I sit back andlet them do there thing and as you posted so well...self destruct.

Dragec
orangehonda wrote:
rapidcitychess wrote:

I have been an attacker, and am always amazed when I, to quote Silman, "zip" through the games of Alekhine, Breyer, Kasparov, Tal, Shirov, and Morphy. I always feel like this: How do they know where to start? Like this:

(Like an Alekhine game.)

 


BTW this isn't so mysterious if you think of it as a deflection sac.   True, it looks fancy because it's the queen, but if all your other pieces are set up for the attack, the one that's not particularly useful can look for a deflection sac, it doesn't matter which piece it is.

Would I be happy to play this in a game?  Heck yeah, it's flashy and a forced win.  Just trying to answer your "how do they know where to start"  Obviously seeing and remembering patterns like this help.  Of course the most impressive part is setting it up, often the execution we puzzle over in tactic books the master had seen long since.


Rh3 would also be enough. A bit less fancy, but also works in 3 moves Cool

madhacker

"2.If the center is blocked, then look the way the pawns point! That's the way you must attack. Whether the King is there or not."

I'm not sure about this. Yes it probably holds up ok as a general rule, but you can't get by on general rules in chess. There are definitely exceptions, mainly involving the opponent undermining the pawn chain with a well-timed break. An obvious one I can think of is in the French Defence where white's pawn chain is pointing towards the black king, and indeed sometimes white it able to work up play against black's kingside, but equally as possible is that black gets f6 in, opens the f-file, and can use this as a means to attack the white king, in combination with the e5 break once white's pawn there is gone, opening lines for queen and bishop etc.

rapidcitychess
madhacker wrote:

"2.If the center is blocked, then look the way the pawns point! That's the way you must attack. Whether the King is there or not."

I'm not sure about this. Yes it probably holds up ok as a general rule, but you can't get by on general rules in chess. There are definitely exceptions, mainly involving the opponent undermining the pawn chain with a well-timed break. An obvious one I can think of is in the French Defence where white's pawn chain is pointing towards the black king, and indeed sometimes white it able to work up play against black's kingside, but equally as possible is that black gets f6 in, opens the f-file, and can use this as a means to attack the white king, in combination with the e5 break once white's pawn there is gone, opening lines for queen and bishop etc.


 It is a general rule. My example is the King's Indian Defense. The French is... well, weird. You play defense, attack, counterattack, and all things at the same time.

 

The reason the "point" rule holds up is that you can "chop" at the bottom of the chain, and that will be the way your pawns point. Yes, black has two breaks in the King's Indian and the French. But play c6 in the Normal KID and you get killed. Play it in the French and time it well.


rapidcitychess
echecs06 wrote:

1-Defense is the best mean of attack

2-Offense wins games-defense wins Championship


1.Defense is not attack, so that makes no sense to me. Could you please clarify?

2.You can't win a championship without winning games either.

Please, clarify.

rapidcitychess

The reason the point rule works, is that you have more space on that side. Secondly, the cramped player bad bishop will be stuck on the side that he has more space. Therefore, an attack on the kingside in the Classical French is hard, because you are a piece short. A queenside atttack, youi can find a use for that piece.