Can you checkmate with bishop and knight on a 9x9 bord?

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RubenHogenhout
SmyslovFan schreef:

It's actually an interesting question whether there might be a position on a 9x9 board that there isn't a forced mate in under 50 moves whereas there would be one on an 8x8 board. I'm guessing that it doesn't make enough of a difference, but a 10x10 would probably be a different matter.

 

White to move and mate in 31:

 

 Yes it could be. If 8x8 is for example possible in 36 moves maybe an 9x9 bord it is posible in about let say 42 moves and a 10x10 bord maybe in 54 moves?  This would not surprise me.  But computer programmers or developers on table bases can prove this thing. In any case is the 8x8 checkmate with bishop and Knight now very easy for me. In this example I would start with Kb2 and Nb6 moves. But anyway I can checkmat this in about 38 moves in about 1 or 2 minutes allready many years. And becomes really boring.  So this 9x9 and 10x10 bord are a new challenge for me! 

 

Nordlandia

The guard moves like an king without royal-attributes attached to it. It's value is close to an knight generally speaking. 

RubenHogenhout
Nordlandia schreef:

The guard moves like an king without royal-attributes attached to it. It's value is close to an knight generally speaking. 

 

Ah so exactly like a king except it can not be checkmated! Ok now I get it.

 

 

RubenHogenhout
OBIT schreef:

Several years I saw a convincing demonstration that checkmate is possible with B+N on any n x n board if n is even.  (The 50-move rule is disregarded, of course.)  Most patterns that execute this mate successfully on an 8 x 8 board have a problem when the board gets sufficiently large, due to possibility of running the defensive king around the bishop and knight and making it to the opposite "wrong corner".   However, with the aid of a chess engine, someone found a pattern that basically confined the king inside a wall, then systematically slid the wall across the board to a good corner.  So the only square boards where the mate is not possible are the n x n boards where n is odd and the bishop is the wrong color.       

 

 Ok I get it , now this is very interesting! Could you show me something about this methode of a pattern that is slid a wall to the right corner? I am very interested in this.  I allready noticed that a 10x10 and a 9x9 board are winning. The last of course only if the bishop has the collor of the four mate corners. I allready noticed too that in this endgame with the uneven board you can have the so named wrong bishop just as the edge pawns have and in this case it is both true. And also count for the same Bishop. If the four corners are always dark with an uneven nxn board it is the light bishop always.

I would like to see this structure of a wall that is slid to the right corner.

 

SmyslovFan

Yeah, clearly the B has to be able to control at least two corner squares, so the odd numbered squares are more problematic. And may take more than 50 moves.

Nordlandia

Not sure if knight's W manoeuvre work. 

RubenHogenhout
Nordlandia schreef:

Not sure if knight's W manoeuvre work. 

 

In post 17 here and in post 3 on the 10x10 threat I showed the  moves. 

 

EndgameEnthusiast2357
OBIT wrote:

Several years I saw a convincing demonstration that checkmate is possible with B+N on any n x n board if n is even.  (The 50-move rule is disregarded, of course.)  Most patterns that execute this mate successfully on an 8 x 8 board have a problem when the board gets sufficiently large, due to possibility of running the defensive king around the bishop and knight and making it to the opposite "wrong corner".   However, with the aid of a chess engine, someone found a pattern that basically confined the king inside a wall, then systematically slid the wall across the board to a good corner.  So the only square boards where the mate is not possible are the n x n boards where n is odd and the bishop is the wrong color.         


Agreed, since all the corners would be the same color, all corners would be wrong
RubenHogenhout

This is correct.

RubenHogenhout

I will demonstrate a clearer win on a 10x10 bord with the triple u -shape.

Also form an easier piont of view as it goes about the notation. on the side below with the low numbers.

 

null

RubenHogenhout

 A   Stay as long as possible in the wrong corner. A

The W-shape as we know it. ( triple u)

1.Nh2+ Ki1 2.Bi3 Kh1 3.Bj2 Kg1 4.Ng4 Kh1 5.Nf2+ Kg1

6.Kg3 Kf1 7.Kf3 Kg1 8.B13+ Kf1 9.Ne4 Ke1 10.Bh2 Kf1

11.Nd2+ Ke1 12.Ke3 Kd1 13.Kd3 Ke1 14.Bg3+ Kd1

15.Nc4 Kc1 16.Bd2 Kd1 17.Nb2+ Kc1 18.Kc3 Kb1

19.Kb3 Kc1 20.Be3+ Kb1 21.Nc4 Ka1 22.Bd2 Kb1

23.Na3+ Ka1 24.Bc3#

 

B. Escape atempt but return to the W-shape.

4.Ng4 Kf1 10.Kg3 Ke2 ( 10…Kg1 11.Nf2 = A ) 

11.Nf2 Kd2 (11…Kd1 12.Kd3 = A )

12.Bf6 Ke2 (the king returns )13.Bg5 ! Kf1

14.Kf3 Kg1 15.Bi3+ Kf1 16.Ne4 Ke1 17.Bh2 Kd1

 (17… Kf1 18.Nd2+ = A ) 18.Ke3 Kc2 (18…Ke1 19.Nd2 = A)

19.Nd2 Kb2 (19…Kd1 20.Kd3 = A ) 20.Bd6 Kc3 21.Be7 Kc2

22.Bf6 ( also possible is Bb4 to creat a small cage , but I proceed with the W-shape

22…Kd1 23.Kd3 Ke1 24.Bh4+ Kd1 25.Nc4 Kc1

26.Bd2 Kd1 27.Nb2+ Kc1 28.Kc3 Kb1 29.Kb3 Kc1

30.Be3+ Kb1 31.Nc4 Ka1 33.Bd2 Kb1 34.Na3+ Ka1 35.Bc3#

 

C. Walk as far as is possible and try to get to the other wrong corner a10.

12…Kc2 13.Kf3 Kb3 14.Ke4! the king must follow the black king!

14…Kb4 ( 14…Kc4 15.Bd4! ) 15.Kd5! prevents the king from escaping to a10!

15…Kb5 16.Bd4! Together with the bishop white stop the black king from running to a10.

16… Ka6 17.Kc6

Just on time if the black king gets to a10 white has to start all over again and achieved nothing.

17…Ka5 18.Nd3 Ka6

( Walking back makes no sence after 18…Ka4 19.Kc5 Kb3 20.Nb4 Ka4 21.Kc4 Ka5

22.Bc5 Ka4 23.Bb6 Ka3 24.Bc7 Ka4

25.Nb2+ Ka3 26.Kc3 Ka2 27.Kc2 Ka3 28.Bd6+ Ka2

29.Nd3 Ka1 20.Bb4 Ka2 21.Nc1+ Ka1 22.Be5# )

19.Nb4+ Ka5 20.Kc5 Ka4 21.Kc4 Ka5 22.Bc5 Ka4

23.Bb6 Ka3 24.Nd3 Ka4 25.Nb2+ Ka3

26.Kc3 Ka2 27.Kc2 Ka3 28.Bc5+ Ka2

29.Nd3 Ka1 30.Bb4 Ka2 31.Nc1+ Ka1 32.Bc3#

 

D. walking back after 15.Kd5.

15.Kd5 Kb3 16.Kc5 Kc2 ( after 16…Ka4 17.Bc3 follows )

17.Be5!  Keep him in the cage. 17…Kc3 ( on 17…Kb3 follows 18.Bd2 )

18.Be3 Kb3 ( on 18…Kc2 follows 19.Kc4 ) 19.Bd2 Kc2

20.Bb4 Ka4 21.Nd1 Kb3 22.Ne3 Ka4 23.Bd2 Kb3

24.Kb5 Ka3 25.Kc4 Ka4 26.Nd1 Ka3 27.Bb4+ Ka2

28.Kc3 Kb1 29.Ba3 Ka2 30.Kb4 Kb1 31.Kb3 Ka1

32.Bb2+ Kb1 Nc3#

OBIT

This is in response to a post from Ruben H about nine months ago, but better late than never, I suppose...

 

Ruben asked about the technique to checkmate with B+N on an n x n board where n is even.  I suggest he check out Henry Keiter's post in the following blog:

 

https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/1432/kbn-vs-k-checkmate-on-nonstandard-boards

 

Keiter essentially put this question to bed by building K+B+N vs K tablebases for 10x10, 12x12, 14x14 and 16x16 boards.  He summarizes his results by giving the number of moves to force mate on every even sized board from 4 to 16. 4: 15; 6: 22; 8: 33; 10: 47; 12: 64; 14: 78; 16: 93.  He also gives the 92-move solution for one of the worst positions on the 16x16 board, and the manner in which the Black king is shuffled down the a-file with no breathing room is quite enlightening.  To see this in action, get four chess-boards, line them up to create a makeshift 16x16 board, and play through the analysis! 

LewisTheCat289043
Hey ik I’m late but I was scrolling through this and kept seeing quote on quote "Knights W maneuver" Also btw I’m a long chess player but I feel like it’s just the knight moving in a W shape pattern like also assuming it’s in the top left corner KB6 KC8 KD6
RubenHogenhout
OBIT schreef:

This is in response to a post from Ruben H about nine months ago, but better late than never, I suppose...

 

Ruben asked about the technique to checkmate with B+N on an n x n board where n is even.  I suggest he check out Henry Keiter's post in the following blog:

 

https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/1432/kbn-vs-k-checkmate-on-nonstandard-boards

 

Keiter essentially put this question to bed by building K+B+N vs K tablebases for 10x10, 12x12, 14x14 and 16x16 boards.  He summarizes his results by giving the number of moves to force mate on every even sized board from 4 to 16. 4: 15; 6: 22; 8: 33; 10: 47; 12: 64; 14: 78; 16: 93.  He also gives the 92-move solution for one of the worst positions on the 16x16 board, and the manner in which the Black king is shuffled down the a-file with no breathing room is quite enlightening.  To see this in action, get four chess-boards, line them up to create a makeshift 16x16 board, and play through the analysis! 

 

Seeing this late again but indeed this are great results.

On the 10 x 10 board I played this and I see that it is precise what I wrote in post 30 and found myself on experience. I am glad you proved it with the table base that you wrote yourself! Impressing,

In fact this is just like the W-shape and also  on the other side of the board. Just what I found myself only a bit adjusted w-shape and the king must walking along with the black king and the king can be stopted at a6.

Incredible that you proved this for 4x4 up till a 16x16 board! And with all the numbers of the checkmate in the longest case. On the 16x16 board I still have to play But I do this later because I need 4 chess boards! But I believe it.  Table bases is a 100% prove. If it counts for all the even boards is still not proven but at least very likely .

I leaves this then for now and assume this is right. That leaves only the odd boards. This seems to be ( of course assuming you have the right corner bishop ) more easy becuase all the corners are right to checkmate the King.  In fact there you only have to do the from the big to the smaller triangel methode. Because there are no wrong corners.

At last if there is a wrong Bishop this is in fact the same as the Two Knights against a pawn endgame. ( or even two panws )  There could also be a Bishop from the wrong collor plus Knight against a pawn endgame!

In this case it is interesting that unlikly the two Knights against a pawn endgame the pawn can be blocked by the Knight but also by the Bishop. I do not know in with case there are more winning possibilities. But in any case it wil influence how far the pawns may stand to be still a winning position. Troitski found at a 8x8 board that the pawns against two Knights may be till a4-b6-c5-d4-e4-f5-g6-h4  squares. And in some cases the pawns may be a bit further for example with the edge pawns they may be one square further but than the king can only be in a specific zone. 

On an uneven board for example 9x9 board with a1 to be dark and a light bishop this can be also the case. A pawn that is blocked for a while when the king plus one piece get the enemy king to a corner sometimes with a bit a help of the blockating piece and then just before the checkmate the blockating piece let the pawn go and when it is running it will be no stalemate and there is a checkmate after all.