But it's news to me that castling rook-first is allowed.
Castling Variation - Touch Rook First
Sort:
Jan 5, 2017
0
#2
Yeah, the move isn't complete until you hit your clock.
But it's news to me that castling rook-first is allowed.
But it's news to me that castling rook-first is allowed.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#4
sthrmin wrote:
USCF Rule 10I2 says, for tournaments that accept this rule variation, the player who touches a rook first can still castle (on that side, if all other conditions of castling is valid).
But if the player move the rook first to the square where it would end up if castled, and then wait for couple of seconds before moving the King is that valid?
[Edit - See my Post #19 for an important correction.] It all depends on whether the player making the move can convince his opponent and/or the TD that he was intending to castle. Imo, it's a poorly written rule, subject to future arguments. (The new rule change does say that the use of Variation I should at least be announced at the start of the tournament.)
sthrmin wrote:
USCF Rule 10I2 says, for tournaments that accept this rule variation, the player who touches a rook first can still castle (on that side, if all other conditions of castling is valid).
But if the player move the rook first to the square where it would end up if castled, and then wait for couple of seconds before moving the King is that valid?
It sounds perfectly clear to me. No, once you move the Rook your move is made. Nowhere does that rule even hint at otherwise. It's just an exception to the touch a piece move a piece rule. Once the Rook is moved it's moved and this rule clearly no longer applies.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#6
SuspiciousFluke wrote:
sthrmin wrote:
USCF Rule 10I2 says, for tournaments that accept this rule variation, the player who touches a rook first can still castle (on that side, if all other conditions of castling is valid).
But if the player move the rook first to the square where it would end up if castled, and then wait for couple of seconds before moving the King is that valid?
It sounds perfectly clear to me. No, once you move the Rook your move is made. Nowhere does that rule even hint at otherwise. It's just an exception to the touch a piece move a piece rule. Once the Rook is moved it's moved and this rule clearly no longer applies.
[Edit - See my Post #19 for an important correction.]
No, it's not clear. "Variation I" is the ambiguous part. Here's the text of the new USCF rule change:
(New rule 10I2 with a variation, as of 1/1/15.)
10I2. Rook touched first.
If a player intending to castle touches the rook first, castling is not allowed and the player mustmove the rook as required by rule 10B.
10I2. (Variation I) Rook touched first.
If a player intending to castle touches the rook first, there is no penalty except if castling is illegal, the player must move the rook if legal. This variation does not need to be announced in advanced publicity but should be announced at the start of the tournament.
I don't understand how it's ambiguous. It seems very straightforward.
If you think it's ambiguous you need to explain yourself. Why is it? I don't see a problem.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#9
SuspiciousFluke wrote:
If you think it's ambiguous you need to explain yourself. Why is it? I don't see a problem.
[Edit - See my Post #19 for an important correction.]
Well, I don't need to explain myself, but for your benefit, I will.
Let's assume that Variation I was announced at the beginning of the tournament. Let's also assume that the White player can legally castle kingside, and he moves the rook from h1 to f1. According to the existing USCF Rule 10I2 (Variation I), he can still legally castle by now moving the king from e1 to g1, even though he moved the rook first. The only other requirement that the White player must meet is that he was intending to castle before he moved the rook. However, the only person who truly knows whether he was intending to castle is the White player himself. That's the ambiguous part of the rule - Nobody else can know for sure whether the White player was intending to castle before he moved the rook (unless the White player announces castling prior to touching the rook, which is not required by Rule 10I2).
Does that explanation clear it up for you?
EscherehcsE wrote:
Well, I don't need to explain myself, but for your benefit, I will.
Let's assume that Variation I was announced at the beginning of the tournament. Let's also assume that the White player can legally castle kingside, and he moves the rook from h1 to f1. According to the existing USCF Rule 10I2 (Variation I), he can still legally castle by now moving the king from e1 to g1, even though he moved the rook first.
I haven't read past this because you're already wrong. I have even already stated why in an earlier post and I won't repeat myself.
P.S. It is entirely upon you to come forward with your perceived problem with the rule. We can't read your mind. If you think there's a problem you must say what it is before it can be discussed.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#11
SuspiciousFluke wrote:
EscherehcsE wrote:
Well, I don't need to explain myself, but for your benefit, I will.
Let's assume that Variation I was announced at the beginning of the tournament. Let's also assume that the White player can legally castle kingside, and he moves the rook from h1 to f1. According to the existing USCF Rule 10I2 (Variation I), he can still legally castle by now moving the king from e1 to g1, even though he moved the rook first.
I haven't read past this because you're already wrong. I have even already stated why in an earlier post and I won't repeat myself.
P.S. It is entirely upon you to come forward with your perceived problem with the rule. We can't read your mind. If you think there's a problem you must say what it is before it can be discussed.
[Edit - See my Post #19 for an important correction.]
Imo, I've explained my reasoning adequately. You disagree, that's fine. I'll leave it to other readers to decide whether I'm right or you're right.
This is madness. I'll keep moving my king first and allow my opponents to do what they want.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#13
Pulpofeira wrote:
This is madness. I'll keep moving my king first and allow my opponents to do what they want.
[Edit - See my Post #19 for an important correction.]
I agree. If I were on the receiving end of this mess, I'd just let my opponent take as much of his time as he desires to decide whether he wants to play Rh1f1 or 0-0. 
Clever!
EscherehcsE wrote:
Imo, I've explained my reasoning adequately. You disagree, that's fine. I'll leave it to other readers to decide whether I'm right or you're right.
Reasoning? The rule is simple. Your reason for being incapable of understanding it really isn't important.
After a Rook has been moved this rule becomes moot. The rule is about touching the Rook, not moving it. If you've completed the move of the Rook, whether you intended to castle or not, your move can't be taken back and I have no idea why you're getting any other ideas in your head.
The rule is perfectly clear.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#17
SuspiciousFluke wrote:
EscherehcsE wrote:
Imo, I've explained my reasoning adequately. You disagree, that's fine. I'll leave it to other readers to decide whether I'm right or you're right.
Reasoning? The rule is simple. Your reason for being incapable of understanding it really isn't important.
After a Rook has been moved this rule becomes moot. The rule is about touching the Rook, not moving it. If you've completed the move of the Rook, whether you intended to castle or not, your move can't be taken back and I have no idea why you're getting any other ideas in your head.
[Edit - See my Post #19 for an important correction.]
What you're saying would make sense if we were discussing FIDE rules. However, we're not. We're discussing USCF rules.
What I'm saying is so straightforward. Nearly as straightforward as this rule. I have no idea why you're bringing FIDE into this. I'm untracking. You've already made me repeat myself.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#19
SuspiciousFluke wrote:
EscherehcsE wrote:
Well, I don't need to explain myself, but for your benefit, I will.
Let's assume that Variation I was announced at the beginning of the tournament. Let's also assume that the White player can legally castle kingside, and he moves the rook from h1 to f1. According to the existing USCF Rule 10I2 (Variation I), he can still legally castle by now moving the king from e1 to g1, even though he moved the rook first.
I haven't read past this because you're already wrong. I have even already stated why in an earlier post and I won't repeat myself.
P.S. It is entirely upon you to come forward with your perceived problem with the rule. We can't read your mind. If you think there's a problem you must say what it is before it can be discussed.
It is now time for a public mea culpa. Over the last couple of years, I must have read Rule 10I2 a couple of dozen times, and I always interpreted it the same way as I stated earlier in this thread.
Well, a few minutes ago, I read the rule for the 25th time, and it was like getting hit upside the head with a two-by-four. I suddenly realized that I had been completely wrong all this time, and SuspiciousFluke is completely correct. I like to take pride in my attention to detail, but in this case, my critical thinking skills were an abysmal failure.
It's never fun to admit when you're wrong, but I must do so in this case. To SuspiciousFluke, I apologize profusely. What you stated in Post #15 is completely correct, and I have no explanation as to why I didn't see this before. I would also like to thank you for forcing this issue and making me see the light.
To all other readers of this thread, please disregard anything I said on this topic prior to this post.
Jan 6, 2017
0
#20
sthrmin wrote:
USCF Rule 10I2 says, for tournaments that accept this rule variation, the player who touches a rook first can still castle (on that side, if all other conditions of castling is valid).
But if the player move the rook first to the square where it would end up if castled, and then wait for couple of seconds before moving the King is that valid?
Now that my thinking process has been recalibrated by SuspiciousFluke's prodding, I believe that the answer to your question is:
a) If Variation I is in effect, and the rook is touched first, then the king is touched, then the castling maneuver is completed: In this case, I believe that castling is allowed.
b) However, even if Variation I is in effect, if the player moves the rook first and releases the rook before touching the king: In this case, I don't think castling is allowed.
Does everyone agree with this interpretation?
USCF Rule 10I2 says, for tournaments that accept this rule variation, the player who touches a rook first can still castle (on that side, if all other conditions of castling is valid).
But if the player move the rook first to the square where it would end up if castled, and then move the King is that valid?