Chess is too much memorization. Let's fix it.

Sort:
euchrestud

There. Someone had to say it.

As a lowly 1500 level player I don't get burned by it so much because I don't have a ton memorized and neither do my opponents. I'm usually out of my internal macro by move eight. But top-level chess is a shame sometimes. The whole concept of going "deep into their preparation" is painful to watch. Am I really watching Carlsen play Grischuk? Or am I watching Stockfish play Stockfish? At the top level of chess it is the latter for the first 20 moves minimum, and then you get into even worse scenarios when one player is taken out of preparation but the other is still within it and it results in lopsided time trouble... I dunno, maybe you feel differently, but to me, this just isn't what I signed up for. I want to see which player can out-skill the other. Not which player can create a bigger move repository in their brain.

So propose to me a single rule change that instantly ruins all of our books and all of our programs and all of our theory so we can hit the "reset" button and put true chess talent on full display again.

Caesar49bc

It's called Chess 960

euchrestud

I almost addressed Chess 960 in the original post. And yeah, it's 90% of the answer I'm looking for. I do love and respect it - even more than classic chess - but I still like the thought experiment I proposed.

Uhohspaghettio1

Openings are too ingrained in people and as much as they complain about memorization they still love to see their openings come up on the board. 

One idea would be to do a kind of hybrid, with themed tournaments where only a certain, rarely seen opening is played and the opening is not disclosed until it has begun. The opening should not have any outstanding features (for example forced tactics or isolani) that might benefit some players more than others, easier said than done however. This has been done a few times and Kasparov endorsed it. 

drmrboss

Any complicated board game requires formula or Algorithm ( e.g Rubik Cube).

As chess is extremely complicated, some deep opening preparartions are like memorized formula or Algorithms.

 

If this does not suit for you, you can play simple " tic-tac- toe" , Mario Jump or coin tossing games. 

euchrestud

I like that idea, Uhoh. I'd watch that tournament.

Classy response there, Australia. I would actually argue that chess is not complicated at all - my four year old can play a legal game of chess - but rather it's beautifully simple. Chess suits me fine at the level I've reached and playing the game isn't ruined by deep preparations. It's watching the greats play chess that I find to be a snore and I thought it'd be fun to see what the community came up with to breathe more life into that scene.

You nailed me on one point, though. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a good game of Mario Jump from time to time.

ThatOneGuy2019
Hi
drmrboss
euchrestud wrote:

You nailed me on one point, though. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a good game of Mario Jump from time to time.

Dont assume Mario Jump is easy. You can jump 1 time, 10 time successfully but hard to get 1000 times successfully to finish the game.

 

And the same, shooting games are easy but it is extremely hard to accurately shoot a dozen times. 

World no 1 games  are not complicated game like chess., rubik cube, but simple games like shooting , racing and racing etc.

SmyslovFan

Chess is an excellent combination of memory, calculation, and strategic thinking. Attempts to "fix" it with inventions such as Chess960 have just created other problems and aren't as elegant. 

Let's keep chess as it is. If you want to invent another game, go for it. But chess is fine as is. If you take a look at current GM practice, they are expanding the playable repertoire of elite chess players every day. 

Sred
long_quach wrote:

Chess. More correctly Western Chess. Even more correctly English Chess. England colonized India and changed the "original" rules.

Really? Quote from the Wikipedia article on Chess: "Around 1200, the rules of shatranj started to be modified in southern Europe".

Sred
long_quach wrote:
Sred wrote:
long_quach wrote:

Chess. More correctly Western Chess. Even more correctly English Chess. England colonized India and changed the "original" rules.

Really? Quote from the Wikipedia article on Chess: "Around 1200, the rules of shatranj started to be modified in southern Europe".

 

Oral history, from the movie The Chess Players (Shatranj Ke Khilari) 1977. My bad. I like oral history. I believe it is the most faithful history.

Thinking about it, it's entirely possible that the English re-imported the modified game to India.

Sred

Re OP: If you feel that this is a problem, why not switch games? Most people like it as it is.

euchrestud

People are taking this far more personally than I ever imagined. This is not a deal-breaking, take-my-ball-and-go-home scenario for me. I enjoy chess. I will continue to play. I'll even continue to watch the best play and still have a good time. I just thought it would be fun to hear some ideas like "rooks can't move backwards - changes both very little and everything."

Sred
euchrestud wrote:

People are taking this far more personally than I ever imagined. This is not a deal-breaking, take-my-ball-and-go-home scenario for me. I enjoy chess. I will continue to play. I'll even continue to watch the best play and still have a good time. I just thought it would be fun to hear some ideas like "rooks can't move backwards - changes both very little and everything."

Even small changes to the rules break the theory built during centuries. This theory is part of the fun and fascination. But of course, everyone is free to invent new games.

Sred

One of the beauties of Chess960 is that it does not change endgame theory.

JayeshSinhaChess
euchrestud wrote:

So propose to me a single rule change that instantly ruins all of our books and all of our programs and all of our theory so we can hit the "reset" button and put true chess talent on full display again.

 

Kramnik already did that by suggesting chess where castling not be allowed, like it was many centuries ago.

 

fabelhaft

”Am I really watching Carlsen play Grischuk? Or am I watching Stockfish play Stockfish? At the top level of chess it is the latter for the first 20 moves minimum”

I have followed many games between Carlsen and Grischuk, and in none of them the first 20 moves minimum were anywhere near that. For example in the game Carlsen won in Shamkir last year, the players had left theory by move 8, and from there it was just an entirely human and interesting game where Carlsen outplayed Grischuk. 

StinkingHyena
Sred wrote:
long_quach wrote:
Sred wrote:
long_quach wrote:

Chess. More correctly Western Chess. Even more correctly English Chess. England colonized India and changed the "original" rules.

Really? Quote from the Wikipedia article on Chess: "Around 1200, the rules of shatranj started to be modified in southern Europe".

 

Oral history, from the movie The Chess Players (Shatranj Ke Khilari) 1977. My bad. I like oral history. I believe it is the most faithful history.

Thinking about it, it's entirely possible that the English re-imported the modified game to India.

Chess was invented in India, but changes kept flowing back into India through the centuries. And yes the modern western version, was introduced to India during the colonial period, however prior to and concurrent to that, India has its own version, and appeared to have a professional body of chess players  (old east India company papers listed the deaths of prominent Indians, ‘chess player’ was the profession listed on several, also I ran across a book translated from Sanskrit to English written by an Indian which ‘adapted’ the original Indian openings to western chess)

SmyslovFan

Much of this hand-wringing over how much memorization there is in chess is completely divorced from the reality of professional chess today. Carlsen, for example, plays all sorts of openings as White, with the clear purpose of getting out of theory as quickly as possible.

 

There are quite a few professionals, such as Jobava and Ivanchuk, who play unusual moves as early as move 3. 

Chess is far more rich than most 1500s can imagine.

SmyslovFan
69AlphaMale109 wrote:

A lot of the best players of any one era are notoriously bad examples for opening play.  You don't NEED a good position if you're THAT much better than the other guy.   2 /3rds of Fischer's and Kasparov's opening repertoires lose by force with best play btw

Joined 3 days ago.