Chess is too much memorization. Let's fix it.

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B1ZMARK wrote:

in 2011, carlsen played this (as black) against Michael Adams, and eventually got a good position.

 

Nah, he eventualy lost the game.

DLPB
euchrestud wrote:

Lol I'm excited to revisit this from over a year ago. Someone mentioned chess has been around, unchanged, for 1500 years, and so of course we've cranked out things like "openings" and "end game theory" and yes - correct - that's exactly the problem. It's less that chess is inherently "flawed" and more that we as a species have played it to death. Every finite game, no matter how complex, is by definition of it's being finite solvable. Chess, for all of it's beauty and diversity, IMO has arrived at the end of it's interesting life. 1500 years is a heck of a run and a testament to what a great game it is/was, and still as a lowly 1700 player I certainly haven't put in the time to climb to the summit of chess, so it's still fun for me to play. That said, the world top chess has too much history behind it to remain interesting to watch. People don't always win for being better at the game, they occasionally (and even often) win for slaving over a computer, watching a program play the game for them, and then achieving a winning or won position by the time they have to play a move they didn't memorize. I don't want to watch what Nepo "has prepared" for Magnus with white. I'm sure he'll play something uncommon by move 10 and it'll be at least a little interesting to watch Magnus try and find the best replies to Nepo's prepared tactics, but really, we're not watching chess. We're watching someone select a series of puzzles for their opponent to have to solve, and if he does well enough for 20 moves then we get to watch chess with 1/4th of the pieces for the other half of the game.

1500 years, helluva run. But Old Chess is weighed down too heavily by it's history at this point. We pumped the well for as long as we could, but it's dry now. It's given all it had. Accept it. Better Chess (aka chess 960) is the more impressive/true world champ. Excited to watch Wesley defend his title some day when FIDE inevitably acknowledges all I've said here and organizes the next tournament.


Spot on.  The bigger problem is that most GMs (including Finegold in his recent video) and players are refusing to drop the emotion and misinformation and accept this.  Fischer was right, and he wanted change - evolution.  That's what chess needs... Fischer random is a start.  But even there you have GMs playing online at 3 or 5 minute time controls - completely missing the point.   Rapid and bullet have no grace or intelligence about them on the whole either in any case. 

The shame of chess is that there just aren't enough GOOD variations up to move 10 to stop memorization.   Apologists often tell you to play weird moves in the opening to get opponents out of their prep...  but by doing that you end up in trouble straight away defending a crap position.

The flaw is in the fact chess isn't complex enough for those initial moves - many of them also transpose to known openings precisely because of this.  It was always going to happen.

Apologists like to shout about Shannon's number - but the reality is the number of good positions you can get or practical games is a far lower number.  And it doesn't matter because, as I've already said, the problem is in the lack of good positions in the first 10 moves - by which time, against a decent player (especially at GM level slow chess), you are already doomed.

GlobalNeighbor

I agree 100% with this. I was excited to learn more about chess - mostly to play more - but it didn't take long at all - after watching some "educational" videos on youtube - to realize that consulting "the engine" for improvement of your game was the standard procedure ad nauseum... to find the best 1 or 2 moves on every turn. No matter what "line" you play there are always those practically necessary moves (sometimes literally only ONE move), that keeps you in the game or wins you the game. I would like to play only those opponents who ditch theory and engines from the get-go and train only in tactics (I know that is unrealistic, but I like the idea). One's rating (more like record - why not just ditch "rating") would be based on 1 or 2 very basic principles, maybe like "fight for the center" and success would be affected notably by tactics training but even more so by the number of games you've played (intuition, let's say). Of course there will be talented players who will rise above the rest, but it seems quite clear to me that straight memorizing the right "lines" and moves (even in unusual positions) is the main focus for those who get off on their rating or their status in the chess world. I used to play soccer - known by many as the "beautiful game" - and very deserving of that title. Chess is anything but beautiful in my view, directly correlated to the more heavily one gets into theory and engines in their study of the game. It becomes the "robot game". If you find trying to emulate a robot is a beautiful thing, then go for it. I don't mind playing a bot and losing most of the time (except the bot I've been playing lately which always adjusts it's level to stay about 400 points ahead of me, no matter how I'm playing - so I barely stand a chance). I used to be impressed by humans with high chess ratings... now, not so much. If anything they just seem mildly autistic to me, from what I observe of their personalities... based on their youtube channels or youtube appearances or their comments in youtube or various other forums.

jonathannarvaezrodriguez

jonathan narvaez good 1000% you

BigDoggProblem
euchrestud wrote:

Lol I'm excited to revisit this from over a year ago. Someone mentioned chess has been around, unchanged, for 1500 years, and so of course we've cranked out things like "openings" and "end game theory" and yes - correct - that's exactly the problem. It's less that chess is inherently "flawed" and more that we as a species have played it to death. Every finite game, no matter how complex, is by definition of it's being finite solvable. Chess, for all of it's beauty and diversity, IMO has arrived at the end of it's interesting life. 1500 years is a heck of a run and a testament to what a great game it is/was, and still as a lowly 1700 player I certainly haven't put in the time to climb to the summit of chess, so it's still fun for me to play. That said, the world top chess has too much history behind it to remain interesting to watch. People don't always win for being better at the game, they occasionally (and even often) win for slaving over a computer, watching a program play the game for them, and then achieving a winning or won position by the time they have to play a move they didn't memorize. I don't want to watch what Nepo "has prepared" for Magnus with white. I'm sure he'll play something uncommon by move 10 and it'll be at least a little interesting to watch Magnus try and find the best replies to Nepo's prepared tactics, but really, we're not watching chess. We're watching someone select a series of puzzles for their opponent to have to solve, and if he does well enough for 20 moves then we get to watch chess with 1/4th of the pieces for the other half of the game.

1500 years, helluva run. But Old Chess is weighed down too heavily by it's history at this point. We pumped the well for as long as we could, but it's dry now. It's given all it had. Accept it. Better Chess (aka chess 960) is the more impressive/true world champ. Excited to watch Wesley defend his title some day when FIDE inevitably acknowledges all I've said here and organizes the next tournament.

I agree with the general gist of your post - that chess opening theory is overanalyzed / "played out", but feel the need to point out that Chess in its current form is "only" 500 years old.

That was the point when the powers of the Queen and Bishop greatly expanded to what we know today. The Queen used to only move one square diagonally, and the Bishop only jumped exactly two squares diagonally! The pawns also could not move two squares up on their first move.

It was a very different game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess