Who should be punished? Who has been injured in any way?
Player A is telling that, i have not finished my move( yes i have played to move but i didnot hit the clock, so player B shouldnot be allowed to make his move before i stop my clock and starts my opponents clock) . Player A is asking for punishing Player B.
Acoording to FIDE and USCF rules, player B does not need to wait for player A to hit the clock. As soon as player A let go of the moved piece (assuming a legal move), player A completed the move whether or not he/she hit the clock.
You're welcome chessmicky. By the way, there is a time control called "clock move" used by many people in casual games (where the touch-move rule is not being enforced). When playing "clock move", if it is the turn of player A, he/she can change his/her mind about a move (i.e., take back a move) as long as he/she has not yet hit the clock. In this scenario, player B should not (must not?) move until after player A has hit the clock.
Acoording to FIDE and USCF rules, player B does not need to wait for player A to hit the clock. As soon as player A let go of the moved piece (assuming a legal move), player A completed the move whether or not he/she hit the clock.
can you send me a link for this FIDE rule pls. this happened to my friend's game. player said that he has made move but he didnot stop his clock so that s still his time (may be he was thinking to offer draw, lol). since the opponent made move immediately , he called the arbiter and punished him with a loss( that was a rapid game). because of this issue i m looking for rules and asking ideas. i thought that it was a reall mistake but i cant find a link to defend my friend( even it has happened, there s still arguement for me.)
What possible punishment could there be other than Player B taking back his move? In real life, what usually happens is that player A has forgotten to push his clock. Player B is doing him a favor by not just sitting there letting A's clock run out
yes, player B is absolutely doing favor but
laws of chess ,FIDE;
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During the game each player, having made his move on the chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent’s clock. A player must always be allowed to stop hisclock. His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game. (See the Articles 5.1.a, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c and 9.6) the player A is telling that even he forgot to do, i am not allowed to stop clock...that 's the arbiters defence. |
hmddemir, the quote that you gave from the FIDE rules seems definitive regarding the question of whether a player can move before the opponent hitting the clock. But there is some debate within the USCF due to conflicting interpretations about exactly when a move is completed. See the link below and the excerpt from that link. So imagine this scenario: player A makes a move but has not hit the clock yet. Player B makes a move, but does not hit the clock either (since player A's clock is already ticking). If someone objects that player B broke the FIDE rule by moving before player A completed his move (by hitting the clock), then someone else could claim player B has not completed his move either (since he did not hit his clock). I realize how strange and messy this sounds, but such is the world of chess arbiters. I have played in many tournaments in the U.S., and I have seen many instances (especially at faster time controls) -- without complaints -- of players moving before the opponent hits the clock. Apparantly many players and tournament directors (in the U.S.) interpret the FIDE rule to allow this.
http://main.uschess.org/content/view/8476/456/
EXCERPT:
"(3) Making a Move — Is it illegal to move before the opponent punches the clock? Apparently not.
One thing that is clear to me from this controversy is how "unclear" the rules for making moves are. This has been a subject of much of the internet discussion following this event — was what Anna did on several moves actually illegal? From what I understand, the USCF rulebook doesn't address the question directly of moving before your opponent punches the clock.
I think that the fact that this close final playoff game was videotaped has brought the issue to the forefront. When things like this happen in blitz tournaments it all occurs so quickly that it can hardly be appreciated.
The difficulty arises due to some ambiguity in the rules themselves, which define a move as not being made (or "completed") until the clock is pressed. You can’t make a move before the opponent completes his move (by pressing the clock). But does that mean you can’t start your move until then, or just that you can’t make (or complete) your move until then?
Here is some evidence from two highly respected directors who say that you can begin your move before the opponent presses the clock:
(1) FIDE Rules — This all was very recently addressed by the well-known International Arbiter Geurt Gijssen in his article on chesscafe.com this month: (See http://www.chesscafe.com/geurt/geurt.htm — question two.)
As you can see, Mr. Gijssen interprets the rules (the FIDE rules, see USCF comments below) to mean that what Anna was doing was not illegal. You must allow the opponent to punch the clock before you complete your move, but you can begin your move (i.e. start moving the piece) before the opponent completes their move by pressing the clock.
This is not what many people believed the rule to be, including me. Many think you cannot start your move until the opponent has hit the clock. But when you think about it, such a rule would be very hard to enforce and there are many occasions in time trouble when this is inevitably what is done, due to the extremely fluid and fast nature of such play. As Gijssen says, "Can you imagine how many quarrels we would have in Blitz and Rapid games?" Is it really even possible to determine if a player has touched a piece before the opponent punched the clock? We are talking about small fractions of a second here during a time scramble. It is all happening so quickly, it seems impractical to require the player to not start his/her move until the opponent’s clock is punched. Is a player who “jumps the gun” by a tenth of a second really making illegal moves? You offer a queen trade, the opponent takes it; and immediately you follow with your automatic recapture before the opponent hits the clock, hitting your clock as quickly after them as you can. This is simply a very common thing.
Gijssen's interpretation of the rule makes the punching of the clock the determining factor, something that is far more easily observable and verifiable.
(2) USCF Rules — Mike Atkins, one of America's most experienced tournament directors, supported this same interpretation with regard to USCF rules in his posting on the CLO forum after he viewed the video:
"I have directed hundreds of blitz tournaments over the past 15 years and helped write the new USCF Blitz rules that are a modification of the old WBCA rules. After watching the video several times, there was nothing illegal except for the piece being knocked over and not replaced. …
I clearly saw Anna making moves while Irina was moving and you can see Irina doing the same thing. This is not illegal. Both players were moving extremely fast. Top blitz players have to do this to survive. If they wait politely until the opponent has moved and punched their clock before moving, they will lose every time. Anyone ever see Hikaru [Nakamura] or Jorge Sammour-Hasbun play blitz? I've seen MUCH MUCH worse at major tournaments, with players moving so fast I couldn't keep up with them - I wish EVERY blitz game had a video as it clears up all arguments.
The rules concerning the clock are:
6.) Except for pressing the clock, neither player should touch the clock except:
6a.) To straighten it.
6b.) If a player knocks over the clock a penalty may be assessed.
6c.) If your opponent’s clock does not tick you may press his side down and re-press your side; however, if this procedure is unsatisfactory, please call for a director.
6d.) Each player must always be allowed to press the clock after their move is made.
6e.) A player should not keep a hand on or hover over the clock.
6D and 6E were at question here. Despite moving very fast, I did not see either player violate 6D and both players were following Rule 4 - Both players were using the same hand to move and hit the clock. It’s really difficult to hover over the clock with one hand and move with the same hand at the same time, I didn't see that happening either. …"
Others in the forums have argued against this interpretation, and I will let them determine what is correct here. It seems to me that at least it needs some clarification. I’m not a tournament director, but if the above interpretation is correct, my humble suggestion for a clear way to explain the technicalities of a move would be something like this:
You begin your move by touching a piece. You are now committed to moving that piece somewhere, if it can be done legally (the “touch-move rule”).
You are committed to a move by releasing the piece on a new square. The move cannot then be changed, even if you have not yet pressed the clock.
The move is completed when you press your clock (thus starting the opponent’s clock).
You cannot complete your move (i.e., press the clock) before the opponent has completed his, nor can you interfere with his move or his ability to press the clock."
hmddemir, the quote that you gave from the FIDE rules seems definitive regarding the question of whether a player can move before the opponent hitting the clock. But there is some debate within the USCF due to conflicting interpretations about exactly when a move is completed. See the link below and the excerpt from that link. So imagine this scenario: player A makes a move but has not hit the clock yet. Player B makes a move, but does not hit the clock either (since player A's clock is already ticking). If someone objects that player B broke the FIDE rule by moving before player A completed his move (by hitting the clock), then someone else could claim player B has not completed his move either (since he did not hit his clock). I realize how strange and messy this sounds, but such is the world of chess arbiters. I have played in many tournaments in the U.S., and I have seen many instances (especially at faster time controls) -- without complaints -- of players moving before the opponent hits the clock. Apparantly many players and tournament directors (in the U.S.) interpret the FIDE rule to allow this.
http://main.uschess.org/content/view/8476/456/
EXCERPT:
"(3) Making a Move — Is it illegal to move before the opponent punches the clock? Apparently not.
One thing that is clear to me from this controversy is how "unclear" the rules for making moves are. This has been a subject of much of the internet discussion following this event — was what Anna did on several moves actually illegal? From what I understand, the USCF rulebook doesn't address the question directly of moving before your opponent punches the clock.
I think that the fact that this close final playoff game was videotaped has brought the issue to the forefront. When things like this happen in blitz tournaments it all occurs so quickly that it can hardly be appreciated.
The difficulty arises due to some ambiguity in the rules themselves, which define a move as not being made (or "completed") until the clock is pressed. You can’t make a move before the opponent completes his move (by pressing the clock). But does that mean you can’t start your move until then, or just that you can’t make (or complete) your move until then?
Here is some evidence from two highly respected directors who say that you can begin your move before the opponent presses the clock:
(1) FIDE Rules — This all was very recently addressed by the well-known International Arbiter Geurt Gijssen in his article on chesscafe.com this month: (See http://www.chesscafe.com/geurt/geurt.htm — question two.)
As you can see, Mr. Gijssen interprets the rules (the FIDE rules, see USCF comments below) to mean that what Anna was doing was not illegal. You must allow the opponent to punch the clock before you complete your move, but you can begin your move (i.e. start moving the piece) before the opponent completes their move by pressing the clock.
This is not what many people believed the rule to be, including me. Many think you cannot start your move until the opponent has hit the clock. But when you think about it, such a rule would be very hard to enforce and there are many occasions in time trouble when this is inevitably what is done, due to the extremely fluid and fast nature of such play. As Gijssen says, "Can you imagine how many quarrels we would have in Blitz and Rapid games?" Is it really even possible to determine if a player has touched a piece before the opponent punched the clock? We are talking about small fractions of a second here during a time scramble. It is all happening so quickly, it seems impractical to require the player to not start his/her move until the opponent’s clock is punched. Is a player who “jumps the gun” by a tenth of a second really making illegal moves? You offer a queen trade, the opponent takes it; and immediately you follow with your automatic recapture before the opponent hits the clock, hitting your clock as quickly after them as you can. This is simply a very common thing.
Gijssen's interpretation of the rule makes the punching of the clock the determining factor, something that is far more easily observable and verifiable.
(2) USCF Rules — Mike Atkins, one of America's most experienced tournament directors, supported this same interpretation with regard to USCF rules in his posting on the CLO forum after he viewed the video:
"I have directed hundreds of blitz tournaments over the past 15 years and helped write the new USCF Blitz rules that are a modification of the old WBCA rules. After watching the video several times, there was nothing illegal except for the piece being knocked over and not replaced. …
I clearly saw Anna making moves while Irina was moving and you can see Irina doing the same thing. This is not illegal. Both players were moving extremely fast. Top blitz players have to do this to survive. If they wait politely until the opponent has moved and punched their clock before moving, they will lose every time. Anyone ever see Hikaru [Nakamura] or Jorge Sammour-Hasbun play blitz? I've seen MUCH MUCH worse at major tournaments, with players moving so fast I couldn't keep up with them - I wish EVERY blitz game had a video as it clears up all arguments.
The rules concerning the clock are:
6.) Except for pressing the clock, neither player should touch the clock except:
6a.) To straighten it.
6b.) If a player knocks over the clock a penalty may be assessed.
6c.) If your opponent’s clock does not tick you may press his side down and re-press your side; however, if this procedure is unsatisfactory, please call for a director.
6d.) Each player must always be allowed to press the clock after their move is made.
6e.) A player should not keep a hand on or hover over the clock.
6D and 6E were at question here. Despite moving very fast, I did not see either player violate 6D and both players were following Rule 4 - Both players were using the same hand to move and hit the clock. It’s really difficult to hover over the clock with one hand and move with the same hand at the same time, I didn't see that happening either. …"
Others in the forums have argued against this interpretation, and I will let them determine what is correct here. It seems to me that at least it needs some clarification. I’m not a tournament director, but if the above interpretation is correct, my humble suggestion for a clear way to explain the technicalities of a move would be something like this:
You begin your move by touching a piece. You are now committed to moving that piece somewhere, if it can be done legally (the “touch-move rule”).
You are committed to a move by releasing the piece on a new square. The move cannot then be changed, even if you have not yet pressed the clock.
The move is completed when you press your clock (thus starting the opponent’s clock).
You cannot complete your move (i.e., press the clock) before the opponent has completed his, nor can you interfere with his move or his ability to press the clock."
thank you very much. it s really helpful for me.
I think its important not to interfere with the opponents pressing of his clock so for example if both players are right handed and the clock is on black`s right hand side.
If white plays Rh8 then black must wait at least long enough to not interfere with white pressing the clock so if black wanted to respond super duper quickly it could be ok to play g6 After white`s hand has moved over to the a or b file more or less but it would not be Okay to make the move g6 in a way which interfered with white moving their hand from h8 across the board in order to hit the clock.
@ hmddemir, You're very welcome -- glad I could help.
@ NM Dale, I agree with everything you wrote.
Whether or not it is technicaly allowed for player B to move before player A has hit the clock, it would be best for player B to wait for player A to hit the clock. After all, it is player A's time that is ticking down, and why risk interfering with player's A right to hit his/her clock? Well, the reason players move before waiting (for the opponent to hit the clock) is that they are trying to save a fraction of a second on each move. This might be understandable if such a player is in time trouble, but this still risks being considered interference (regardless of how one interprets the rules) and should be avoided. Using a time delay or increment would help prevent the occurance of these situations.
My question is, Player A and B is playing over the board. A has made his move and didnot hit the clock. B has made his move immediately. what should be the results or punishments here for 1) classic game 2) blitz game.
thanks.