Could Magnus Carlsen give Capablanca knight odds and still win?

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BurgerKe2

Obviously players are much better then they used to be, but how much better?

Dragonlouis
Prob not
Vincidroid

Depends on the day I suppose. To be more precise, depends on the year actually. 

llama47

Kauffman's analysis suggested that knight odds would make a 2200 favored in a match vs a 2800.

https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-evaluation-of-material-imbalances-by-im-larry-kaufman

So for Carlsen to be favored, Capa would have to be weaker than 2200... which is silly.

The question itself is very silly, and the OP is rated a little too high to ask it seriously, so seems like a troll.

SmyslovFan

This is a TOUGH question! 

Magnus is clearly better than Capablanca ever was, and knows how to reach precisely the sort of chaotic positions where a missing piece may not be decisive. But a full match?

I'd give Capa slight odds to hold off Magnus in a 24 game match, but it would be close.

 

Laskersnephew

I don't think it's a tough question at all! I'm putting all my (imaginary) money on Capa!

mpaetz

     Not a chance. Capablanca beat Lasker (longest lasting world champion) more decisively than Fischer beat Spassky or Carlsen has beaten anyone. Lasker didn't win a single game and simply gave up mid-match, declaring that he had NO chance of winning.

     Capablanca is rated by many people as the best player ever. No expert would leave him off the top-10 list. Elite players today know more about chess than players of long ago because today's players have studied the games of past greats and learned their techniques, and technology has put much more opening theory at their fingertips, so more than likely Carlsen could win a match playing lines that Capablanca had never seen. But a whole knight?

     Also, Carlsen and Capablanca play(ed) in much the same manner, often turning positional features that no one else even considered advantageous into enough pressure to squeeze their opponents mercilessly and eke out wins that others thought impossible. 

     I doubt that any player could give Capablanca a pawn and manage a draw. Knight odds are ridiculous.

SmyslovFan

Here's a related question: Using current players, at what rating level would Magnus be able to win a match with Knight odds? Larry Kaufman estimates Knight odds to be about 600 points. If that's true then Capa should be favored. But I'm not 100% convinced. I think Carlsen would be favored even against 24xx rated players.

nTzT

No... Capablanca was one of the greatest players and they paved the way. Just because theory has advanced doesn't mean he would lose a whole Knight down, holy.

Pulpofeira
jessicatheprodigee escribió:

Fischer claimed he could beat any woman knight odds. He was good, but I don't think anyone is giving a knight away to Polgar or Ju Wenjun and expecting to win.

Polgar would give him a run for his money without any odds.

McDomnhaill

Probably not.  However, and you can ask Fabiano Caruana and others on this one several times over, if you accept an early Queen trade from Carlsen, or even an early sacrifice, the odds will not be ever in your favor.  Call it the Carlsen paradox, much like Tal.  That said, there is a big difference between starting a piece down and giving up or exchanging that piece as a tactic in support of a larger strategy.

caezx

I'd put it this way:
1992 Polgar vs 1992 Fischer would be a very interesting match.
2005 Polgar vs 1992 Fischer would be a pretty convincing Polgar win.
2005 Polgar vs 1962 Fischer would be a very interesting match.
2005 Polgar vs 1972 Fischer would be a pretty convincing Fischer win.
In any case, the side with Knight odds would win easily, as in any match between strong GMs.

Toviya

No, not even close. In fact, I think Cap would make a few draws in an equal match of multiple games.

krazeechess

Since everyone is saying capablanca would win, let's change it to a one pawn odd. What would be the result if Carlsen started down a pawn?

Pulpofeira

If it is the c pawn, he's in trouble.

llama47
SmyslovFan wrote:

Here's a related question: Using current players, at what rating level would Magnus be able to win a match with Knight odds? Larry Kaufman estimates Knight odds to be about 600 points. If that's true then Capa should be favored. But I'm not 100% convinced. I think Carlsen would be favored even against 24xx rated players.

It depends on the time control... he squish most people in blitz, even very strong players, but in classical time controls such odds is just insulting to any titled player.

llama47

Peter Svidler was talking on a stream once and opined that the art of odds giving may have been lost to time, because he once gave a 2100 player knight odds in an unrated game and said he barely managed to draw, and after the game was over he was quite happy with himself that he'd managed that much because it was a very difficult game for him.

OtW47

Probably not

Burke

No.

Not a chance. Not "probably not". Where in Capa's games does anyone see a weakness that would allow him to lose to ANYONE EVER a full knight up? 

 

IsraeliGal

knight odds is a bit extreme. 

Capablanca wasn't an idiot. Plus if you consider his strengths, he was an endgame machine, similar to magnus. If he was able to maintain that knight advantage into the endgame, he'd just win. 

Also you have to consider that if magnus was to give knight odds to the average GM today he would probably lose often.