Did Kramnik miss good winning chances against Carlsen in London 2009?

Why did Kramnik, a great tactician, miss a chance for a very powerful attack against Carlsen at London 2009? On move 13...Kramnik played the weak move 13...Qc8 tying his pieces to the defense of the backward pawn on the open file. In other words, Kramnik conceded a big positional edge to Carlsen. Could he have avoided that passive approach?

With 13.Nd2 Carlsen achieved a typical GM position. First he started out in Classical Mode with his Knight on f3 ahead of his f-pawn, then he dropped into what I call Universal mode i.e. all his pieces are back of his pawns and there is only one half open file. Normally this might be good for an advantage, however, here, it just gives Black a very powerful attack.

With 13...Bc8!! Black has a very powerful initiative after 14...Ne6! The Knight is a crushing attacker and defender and covers the entire board. There is no easy way to dislodge it; if White tries Bh3 to get rid of it, then this just provides fuel for a Kingside attack with f5.

Here is how, I believe, the game should have proceeded. First of all White's pieces are misplaced on the Queenside. There is no Queenside pressure of any signifcance, since Black easily protects b

7 and c7.

Are you on drugs?

are you joking?

What kind of atmosphere do we want here in the forums?

Oh god, not more analysis from someone who has played chess for 25 years and still plays around a national rating of 1200.

Indeed - there has been no name calling on this thread.

It's Nxd4 that's the mistake, not Nd2. And it's really funny how you think retreating the knight from d4 and bishop to c8 is so awesome. Now the bishop is horrible and sure the knight is decent on e6, but it's not amazing and why not keep it on d4 for a while anyway?

Qc8 is theory.  If that helps... :P

After discussing the position with GM Lev Alburt for about 45 minutes, the position is, according to Lev, "playable" for Black but he prefers to play White. Here is the result of his analysis relying on human intuition and logic, not just computer logic.

Hehehe, sloughterchess, you are so full of it, are you by any chance a reincarnation of cheater_1?

One of the main points of Bc8 is that it discourages 14.e3 because after 14...Ne6, d3 hangs, so White has to dismiss that as the source of an advantage say after 14.e3 Ne6 15.Qc2 Nc5 & Black has a good game.

A major strategy for Black is to play the maneuver Qe8/g5/Qg6; Black can stop the effectiveness of this by playing 14.Nc4 Nxc4 15.dxc4, but White has lost his key strategic advantage, the backward pawn on the open file. If White tries 14.Bb2, despite the evaluation as slightly better or White, the computer is clueless here because it doesn't understand that the Bishop has no future on that diagonal because of the fact that there are pawns of g7/f6/e5.

To get to a good diagonal, White has to play a4/Ba3, but, as indicated here, if 14.Nc4 Nxc4 15.dxc4 Qe8! (White avoids the exchange of Queens and threatens Qg6 in some variations) 16.Nd5 Ne6! (Daring White to win the Bishop because White's Knight on e6 cannot be dislodged easily and the longer it sits there, the more it obstructs White's fluid development)

If now 16.Nxe7ch Qxe7, Black is the first to get to the d-file with his Rook. Black now threatens just Rb8/b6 with an anti-Bishop motif. You will note that after b6 that Black has blocked two diagonals of White's Queen Bishop i.e. Black has devalued White's dark-squared Bishop by placing so many pawns on the same color as that Bishop.

Once Black plays Rb8/b6, Black's Queen Bishop comes into play with either Bb7 or Ba6.

Since White has no play on the Kingside (Black is equal or better on the Kingside due to the strong Bishops, his active Queen---Qg6 in some variations &/or the strong Knight on e6).

Black has at least equality in the center because he can bring his Rook to the d-file faster than White can bring a Rook to the d-file (In the event of Nxe7ch).

White's only hope, it would appear is to try to create and promote a passed pawn on the Queenside, but with the Knight on e6 and the Bishops on c8 and d8, that is a pretty tall order.

At a minimum Black has more chances to complicate the position with Bc8/Qe8 than with Qc8.

Finally, if White is not careful and allows Black to get in b6 with the Bishop or Queen on e7, then the threat of Nc5 has to be met.

Here, for example, Black has the option of meeting 17.a4 with Bc5 instead of Bd8, again with a complex position with excellent practical chances to win or draw. As indicated even if White plays Nxe7ch, White has nothing better to do than give up the light squares in order to play Bxe6 getting rid of the annoying Knight on e6.

When I raised the question whether Black would stand well with my innovation, 13...Bc8, it was not meant to "prove" Black was better, but that Black's chances to win were better than White's. Here are a few candidate moves.

1)a4? Bb4 =/+

2)14.Nf3 a4 =/+

3)14.e3 Ne6 15.Qc2 Nc5 =/+

4)14.Bb2 a4! Now what does White do? The a-pawn will serve as an anchor for either Bishop or Knight crippling White. If White tries to undermine the a4 pawn with 15.Nc4?, then Black just plays 15...Be6! e.g. 16.Nxb3 cxb3 17.Bxb7? Rb8 18.Bg2 Bb3 -/+  White can forget about trying to win the poisoned pawn and try 16.Nxa4?? Bb3 -+ White just hung a piece.

If 15.e3 Ne6 16.Qc2 Nc5 17.d4 exd4 18.exd4 & White is stuck with a weak isolani and a shattered pawn structure. =/+

So the best that White appears to be able to do is attempt to eke out a win in a very drawish position after 14.Nc4 Nxc4 15.dxc4 Qe8 16.Nd5 Ne6 17.Nxe7ch (a4 Bc5=/+) Qxe7 & White has spent 6 tempos with his Knights only to exchange them off and allow Black to be the first to occupy the open d-file with his Rook with good chances to equalize. The Knight on e6 is at least as good as the Bishop on g2 & better than the Bishop on c1.

Since four of the five candidate moves give Black excellent chances to achieve a plus, it would appear absent any real advantage White has with 14.Nc4 exchanging an active Knight for a passive Knight and repairing Black's pawn structure, objectively, 13...Bc8 seems a better choice than 13...Qc8.

Another patzer that goes on to explain in like 17 paragraphs why he is a genius refuting opening theory. Yawn.

Nah, he just enjoys screwing around with people. Only a pitty it doesn't really work :p

Plenty of criticism but a complete absence of contrary analysis. Show me your brilliant refutations or are you too scared to be proven wrong? Check out the thread Supranormal Acitivity in chess for my credentials before you call me a patzer.

Your credentials is 25 years of chess playing and a national rating about 1100.

SAnd Kramniks credentials, since you compare your analysis to his, is... world champion!

This is a though one, national rating of 1100, or a world champion, hmm.

Sloughter's topics are interesting in that there is little continuity between him and the other posters.  He says what he was going to say regardless of what and even if people post.  While the others basically ignore his lengthy posts to comment about how absurd it all is.  It's like two deaf people standing face to face having two different conversations, each oblivious to the other, but still enjoying themselves.

Still no analysis but Carlsen does say this, 16...a4 "A sound move he has to create counterplay" Against 14.Bb2, what do I recommend? 14.a4

On move 18 Carlsen has this to after 18...Ne8, "Again, the best move; c7 has to be protected." My recommendation: Defend c7 from e6, not e8. This forces White to exchange off his King Knight for the offside Black Knight and repair Black's pawn structure. The Knight on e6 is the best placed piece on the board.

You talk about my playing strength but completely ignore the fact that GM Lev Alburt spent about 45 minutes examining the position and we concluded that the best that White could do was to play the line 13...Bc8 14.Nc4 Nxc4 15.dxc4 Qe8 16.Nd5 Ne6 = to +/= Another possibility is to try 15...Be6?! with the idea of 16.Bxb7 Bxc4 17.Bxa8 Qxa8 -/+ Of course White can improve with 16.e3 with a slightly better position. 

 another patzer who thinks he's better than kramnik    

Many of the people here seem to be saying that sloughterchess is wrong, but no one seems to be explaining why. If you think that sloughter is wrong then please provide counter analysis like he asked.

 Also in my humble opinion, the short comments that are condescending or mentioning drugs are utterly useless. There is no point in posting such things, unless you really do get a bang out of feeling smug and better than someone else. If that floats your boat then I am sorry for you.

And a player rating doesn't neccesarily reflect a person's ability to analyze a chess game they are not playing. Isn't it possible for someone to make an astute analysis of a sports play even if the individual is uncapable of reproducing it? Sloughterchess may not be anywhere near as good as a WC, but that doesn't mean that he can't analyze the game.