Do premium members get a free ride?

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Jamalov

i have read more than once in various places on chess.com where someone claims that chess.com is less likely to ban premium members than non-paying members. is there even a grain of truth in these claims?

mldavis617

Maybe a bias.  Losing a non-paying "member" doesn't lose much.  OTOH, I was a non-paying member for several months while looking around and playing.  I heard some complaints about cheating, but in my 20-some games don't really have any suspicion that any of my opponents were doing so.  My losses were due to my own errors.

There is no way to really answer that question without an admission from the top brass.  Since we have no idea of how cheaters are caught or identified, and since evidence is kept private, presumably to avoid divulging methods of detection which is reasonable, I guess we simply have to take their word for it.

From a practical standpoint, if someone was cheating, why risk membership money by getting caught.  If we could possibly know the true percentages of member vs. non-member cheating, I know where my money would go.

Aetheldred

If you cheat and they catch you, you'll get banned, 100% guaranteed.

mldavis617

...which is only fair.  There are complaints from paid members of loss of their payment when banned.  I can't imagine chess.com banning a paid member without rather damning evidence because it costs them money.

egdodnoj

I think if you are a paying member and get banned for cheating chess.com has to refund any unused portion of your membership, unless they can %100 prove that you were cheating which I'm sure is hard to do.  This may therefor dissuaded them from looking into the cheating of paying members all that closely.

TimJohnHarris

No, because if they allowed cheaters to proliferate, they would lose even more paying members, like myself, who would leave in disgust.

PLAVIN81

No free ride=For the cost of the premium payment = All that you get bto improve your game is a bargainSmile

furtiveking
egdodnoj wrote:

I think if you are a paying member and get banned for cheating chess.com has to refund any unused portion of your membership, unless they can %100 prove that you were cheating which I'm sure is hard to do.  This may therefor dissuaded them from looking into the cheating of paying members all that closely.

No, they don't. The TOS that you stated you read when you signed up clearly says that members aren't due refunds when their account is closed, for any reason.

egdodnoj

No, they don't. The TOS that you stated you read when you signed up clearly says that members aren't due refunds when their account is closed, for any reason.

They can't terminate your account without cause without also providing a refund for any unused portion of you membership.  Cheating is cause for termination as the TOS states but they would have to prove that you cheated which is hard to do under any circumstances and imposable to do without revealing the method by which they detect cheating.  I'm not saying they won't ban a premium member for cheating but they would likely refund some portion of your money upon doing so.  Maybe a staff member will contradict me here but if they do I would have serious reservations about keeping my premium membership, because I usually buy it for the whole year and have had several sour losers accuse me of cheating.  To think that they could just ban me and keep my money without providing some assemblance of proof gives me pause.

furtiveking
egdodnoj wrote:

No, they don't. The TOS that you stated you read when you signed up clearly says that members aren't due refunds when their account is closed, for any reason.

They can't terminate your account without cause without also providing a refund for any unused portion of you membership.  Cheating is cause for termination as the TOS states but they would have to prove that you cheated which is hard to do under any circumstances and imposable to do without revealing the method by which they detect cheating.  I'm not saying they won't ban a premium member for cheating but they would likely refund some portion of your money upon doing so.  Maybe a staff member will contradict me here but if they do I would have serious reservations about keeping my premium membership, because I usually buy it for the whole year and have had several sour losers accuse me of cheating.  To think that they could just ban me and keep my money without providing some assemblance of proof gives me pause.

Sorry, I was wrong, it explicitly states that you must violate the TOS in order to have your account closed and not be given a refund, but it says nothing about requiring proof, nor would they give proof.

Lucidish_Lux

I've been privy to the back-end cheat detection methods used by another site by being the brother of one of the admins. Believe me when I say that cheat detection can be pretty sophisticated, and very easy to see when someone cheats and when they don't. They didn't ban unless they were sure, and their memberships were free. Chess.com I'm sure also doesn't ban without cause. Also, 90+% of cheaters are really stupid about how they do it, and that makes it even easier.

As a disclaimer, it wasn't a chess-related site, and the methods and context are different, but I imagine the same principles hold. 

Jamalov

the question is whether the the type of membership is a factor in the ban decision at a given level of evidence and whether the level of evidence needed for banning is higher for paying members.

egdodnoj

I would think that the bar for banning someone is high and probabley the same for premium and regular members.  However I would also think they would have to give a refund to a banned premium member.  Lets say a someone pays for a year of diamond membership gets banned for cheating a month later.  To not provide a refund  nor proof of cheating would open chess.com up to the possibility of a law suit and the sapina of their cheating detection methods.  This is why I think they would ban the premium cheater and then give a refund on the off chance that they are wrong, or just to be on the leagaly safe side.

mldavis617

It would simply be cheaper to refund than to fight a court challenge.  And I suspect that only those who retain an attorney and challenge a dismissal would be granted a refund.  No challenge, no refund.  But the burden of proof cuts both ways, and how would anyone prove in court that they were not cheating?  And in what court would that be decided in an international forum?  And who is willing to pay an attorney more than the refund is worth?  I doubt there are many refunds.

plutonia

if they ban you for cheating do they ban your whole account?

 

perhaps to avoid the problems discussed in this thread they could simply ban a person from playing chess but still leave him with access to videos, TT, chess mentor, etc.

davewalsh85

I know people who have been banned and have no idea why. They weren't cheating.

tmodel66

I know of a non-paying member banned for a pattern of sending nasty messages with foul language and racist remarks - and he should have been banned for that IMO.

WayneT

It would make commercial sense to provide paying members a slightly longer rope with which to hang themselves. I don't know if this is the case however.

Annabella1
Valerie96 wrote:

I know people who have been banned and have no idea why. They weren't cheating.

Yeah.....sure

mldavis617

I concur with the administration decision to ban those using foul or abusive language.  This site is used by both adults and younger players.  While profanity and abuse don't bother me (as a former military soldier and law enforcement officer, I've heard it all), it does offend me that such might be allowed on a public, international web site accessible to youngsters.

There have been a few players who claimed innocence to cheating and have been able to plead their case and be reinstated after investigation and consideration.  However it is not in the interests of chess.com, I'm sure, to ban players without cause.

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