FIDE Illegal move clarification

In a recent Rapid play tournament under FIDE rules, I made an illegal move by picking up my pawn and trying to take the bishop. The arbiter was called and added 2 mins to my opponents clock, even though I'd not hit the clock over to my opponent yet. The arbiter then insisted I had to take the bishop with my Rook. Which led to me losing my 2 rook advantage. Can somebody please explain the decision of the arbitrator to me please, so I will know better in future.

I don't understand part , where he added 2 mins to you clock.

Rapid and blitz should go under same category and if am illegal move been made its a loss.

In you case you didn't press the clock just touch a piece, which is I legal to move anyway so shouldn't be any penalty for it in my opinion.

You touched his bishop that's very debatable .....

you didn't press the clock. so no illegal move. (penalty for illegal move in rapid chess would have been a loss. and not 2 minute time increase.)

did you touch both your pawn and his bishop?

if you touched your pawn first, you are forced to make a pawn move (f6 is the only legal move).

if you touched his bishop first,  you are forced to capture his bishop (Rxg6 is the only legal move).

if it's any consolidation to you, either way it's a pretty easy draw for black. (although with your rating and i suppose your opponent was somewhat similar rated, you could have played on and hoped for a blunder if your 2 rooks were still on the board)

Where's 2 minute time penalty come from? For what?

But it is a dead draw even if you did not touch your pawn nor his bishop.

I try to explain. First If you make an illegal move in Blitz you will lose the game if the opponent claims the win. In other play tempos Rapid or normal games it will not lose. In stat of this you will get a time penalty. I know this because I also once experenced this. Not is time extracted of your time but your opponent is given two minutes extra time. This is mostly not such a problem. But now the rest. If you touched piece with with you did the illegal move you have to move with it. Because touches = move .  Now it following. If it is possible to move this piece some were else then the illegal move went then you have to move this piece to some other possible square.  If not you can move an other piece with you like.  But now an other thing. If you grab the piece of your opponent. This means take intention. So you have to take this piece. If this is not possible with the piece your touched I think you have to take it with an other piece if possible.  I gues this last. I did not experieneced it. Because you are unlucky and it is possible to take the bishop with the rook , You are oblicated to do so. As you can t take with the pawn because you put your king in a check then.   If this last is true too then the arbiter made the right decicion.

This means two things too. If your rook for example was not on h6 but for example on h4. It was not possible to take the bishop with that rook and you only have too make a move with the pawn you touched if possible.  In this case it is and you have to play f6.  If the pawn for example was a bishop. Then it was not possible to take and also not to move this piece.  If then the rook was on h6 you have to play Rxg6. If your rook was on h4 you could not take the bishop nor move a bishop on f5. It means because it is not possible then you could make any move you like too.

And also if you only touched the pawn but not the bishop then it was possible to move f6.

But about one thing I am not sure. If you touched the pawn and the Bishop and you had the intention to take the Bishop with the pawn and not with the rook. I am not sure if you have to take it then with the rook. For this you can take a look at the rules.

for rapid chess the rules were changed 3 years ago or so. now in rapid chess an illegal move is a loss just like in blitz.

Really? Now then it is long ago that I played rapid games, lol! But I like normal chess also much more anyway.

royalprobe wrote:

RubenHogenhout hat geschrieben:

I try to explain. First If you make an illegal move in Blitz you will lose the game if the opponent claims the win. In other play tempos Rapid or normal games it will not lose.

for rapid chess the rules were changed 3 years ago or so. now in rapid chess an illegal move is a loss just like in blitz.

👍 Correct. Still I don't understand where 2 minutes come from?

afaik 2 minute penalty is possible in standard time control chess when a player makes an illegal move (the 2nd illegal move loses the game in standard chess btw).

most likely the arbiter mixed these things up.

First off thank you all for your comments, its a long and rocky road to chess enlightenment, all help is gratefully received. 

After chatting with some fellow competitors today I also have the following insight.

a) I understand that the organizers had implemented a 2 illegal moves rule for this tournament. This explains the 2 minutes being added to the clock and not an instant disqualification.

b) Although technically I hadn't completed an illegal move, because I'd not hit the clock over to my opponent yet, I'd still touched my pawn so had to move it. 

c) the base of the pawn touched the bishop so according to article 4.3.c I'd shown intent to take the bishop, so had to take it with the pawn, unless it was an illegal move. 

d) then it gets a bit sketchy. Depending on how you read article 4.3.c you should "move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured."

First, it sounds like I have a choice, "move or capture." 

The first piece touched was the pawn and it could be moved legally but not capture legally. If that was the end of it I would understand the intention of the article.

The arbiter's interpretation was, I had no choice and had to bring the Rook into play.  If I wasn't able to move the pawn then I'd understand, if I'd touched the bishop first, I'd understand. I have to admit the arbiter's interpretation means I would still be confused if I came across a similar situation in any future games.

Thanks again for any insight . . .

I don't really understand the 2 minute penalty...whichever piece you touched first, if it was the pawn, you would have to advance it forward, and if it was the bishop, you would have to take it with the rook. The 2 minute penalty seems weird and doesn't make much sense to me. I suppose that is just where you have to trust the arbiter's judgment, although I can definitely sympathize with your frustration. 

I understand what you wrote and what the rule were in this tournement. So the time penalty is clear to me. Also that because you touched the pawn you have to move it if it is possible and because you touched the Bishop you should take it if possible. ( With the pawn ).

But the interpretation of articel 4.3.c is a bit strange to me.

Because you touched the pawn with the intention to take the bishop with the pawn my interpretation would be,  You touched the pawn so you should moves this pawn. Second you touched the Bishop so you should take the Bishop if possible. Third because it is not possible to take the Bishop with the pawn because you put yourself in a check then, you have to move this pawn. So you have to move it to f6. this would be my interpretation of the rule. Because also this was the take and move intention. You have NOT touched the Rook nore had the intention to take the Bishop with that rook. Thus it is completly weird to me that you had to take the Bishop with that rook just because this piece could also take it. It was on h6 and not on h4. But you never touched that rook in the first place nore had the intention to play this rook, let alone to take the Bishop with it. So I think this can not be how the rule was ment. Thus in my opinion the pawn must be moved and only to f6 is to do so.

Of course I assume you did touched the Bishop first ( with the intention to play it ) and then grab the bishop ( with the intention to take it with the pawn. ) .

Nailed it in one.

Actually, Pfren's comment about rapid chess is absolutely correct. The arbiter could have awarded Black the win. The caveat may be if the clock hadn't been hit yet, which may give the arbiter some room for discretion.

Here's the Rapid rule:

Thanks again everybody, I'm getting a consensus that the arbiter may have gotten a little carried away with forcing me to take the bishop with the rook. I touched the pawn first and only brushed the bishop with the base of the pawn before my opponent called the illegal move. Before I'd finished trying to take the bishop or pressed the clock. It seemed to me at the time the pawn move was the correct way to continue but, my inexperience and my opponent being rated 600 points higher than me, led me to defer to people around me and I failed to assert my argument. But thanks again for the advice, BTW I went on to lose the game (the position wasn't as simple as shown in my original posting), but as they say you either win or learn and your comments have certainly helped me to do the latter. 

as conclusion: considering the special rule (that the 2nd illegal move loses the game) in that tournament, the arbiter made two mistakes. firstly, you didn't press the clock, so you should have been allowed to make a legal move without any further consequences. and secondly you shouldn't have been forced to capture the bishop because you touched the pawn first.