Fischer Random (chess 960) is a better measure of ability

Wesley So has crushed magnus and the field in this format for the past two years. Given that fact, how is Wesley not objectively the most purely skilled chess player?

By removing all opening prep, you are neutralizing Magnus’ greatest advantage and weapon — his beyond photographic memory when it pertains to chess positions and theory. He remembers every position he has ever seen. That’s an insurmountable advantage when applied to both opening theory and pawn endgames.

Fisher 360 puts all players on an even playing field. It is so much purer than each player knowing the first 20+ moves by memory because a computer told them it’s ideal. That’s so lame and unimaginative. It’s honestly depressing how repetitive and drawish chess has become.

Magnus is the GOAT and best in the world at chess largely because of his memory — not purely because of his chess abilities. But when we put the starting pieces in a totally random position and play…. the guy who keeps winning is clearly “better” than the guy he beats, and that fact can ONLY be attributed to superior talent, intuition, and/or creativity.

It seems that Fischer random is looked down upon as an inferior or silly version of the game, when in reality how can you argue that it’s not a better and purer measurement of playing ability?

I don't see how anyone could argue with that.  There should be a separate world championship at classical time controls though OTB.  Its a joke having blitz games online as far as having serious quality games played.  I believe it could eventually overtake Classical Chess if it were taken seriously.

I think it's the opposite. Removing all prep makes the game less skill based.

For example you could ask the grandmasters to play shogi, checkers, go, etc. Because it's only skill if it's a game you haven't played before... this makes no sense.

Chess is not an intelligence test, it's an actual skill. It's like saying a guitar player is not actually skilled, because they practiced playing. It's a stupid argument.

I don't disagree with that.  However, chess960 is a completely different form of chess and there is no reason it can't be a branch of traditional chess.  You don't have do ditch classical chess. Fishcher was right in that classical chess had become a memory game and even though he had no problem memorizing openings with the best, it became boring.  Look at all the stalemates in classical chess at the grandmaster level.  Overall I believe chess960 would be more exciting.

I think somewhere in the middle would be interesting. For example if FIDE selected 5 different starting positions, and then for the next 3 years games will randomly start from one of those 5. Then after the 3 years is over, have a new set of 5. That way people can still show off their opening research and understanding, but the impact isn't as large.

Or they could just alternate between Fischer Random and Classical.  Half and half.  

Some Fischer Random starting positions favor white too much, so you'd at least have to remove those.

Some are boring, so it would be good to remove those too.

Could you give a couple of positions where White has a significant advantage? When I get the time I would like to let a strong engine auto  play a few games and see how much of an advantage there is.  I would think though there would be defenses for black.  Some GM's could make a pretty good income publishing an FRO (Fischer Random Openings) book.

 

 

 

Great points from both of you guys! I’d never considered the idea of 5 or so starting positions to then master. That’s actually pretty brilliant, since you do have a point in that white definitely has small advantages with some positions. Occasionally you see a game where it’s like white has tempo from move 1 and all black can do is try to play catch-up.

I do think the standard chess has absolutely become more of a memory game than a creativity game. So few decisive wins, and excessive draws stemming from shared knowledge + a lack of creativity or willingness to take risks.

This tournament is my absolute favorite of the year. It’s so much more fun to see Magnus have to sweat and think so hard, instead of just taking no risks and coasting to endgame victories. This is chess, guys.

I have no interest in it as a format.

This just makes Wesley So objectively skilled in this variant; it is not the same as chess. I'd say Wesley So already has a strong reputation for being one of the best players in Fischer Random (960 chess). 

Let me phrase it another way, the opening stage of chess and the opening "prep" of chess is part of the game. In Fischer Random (960), this element is virtually absent, but this doesn't make "ability" better or worse. Playing this variant myself, I've come to realize that usually after 10-20 moves, the positions look like that of a typical chess game. Since after these moves, the game is basically the same as regular chess, we can't claim that the variant is a better indicator of chess ability. The opening stage you've essentially removed is part of ability as well.

“Let me phrase it another way, the opening stage of chess and the opening "prep" of chess is part of the game”

— Right, and in 2022 it’s also the part of the game that requires less ability than every other aspect. Each GM has an entire team of lesser GMs who all use the assistance of engines to determine the first 10-20 moves of every opening. Objectively, this is primarily a memory contest until the middle game begins. So why is this particularly skillful?

“In Fischer Random (960), this element is virtually absent, but this doesn't make "ability" better or worse.”

— It does though. You’ve removed the part where the player and his entire team decide what moves to play with the help of computers. That part doesn’t exactly scream “ability”.

“Playing this variant myself, I've come to realize that usually after 10-20 moves, the positions look like that of a typical chess game.”

— You’re not wrong, but you overlook the fact that many fischer random games are decisively lopsided within the first 10-20 moves, whereas standard chess games are virtually never lopsided because of opening prep.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t enjoy or appreciate regular chess more. But team + engine assisted opening prep is NOT a better gauge of ability than having none of those factors and playing from a random position that is unknown to both players.

If everyone could easily prepare openings chess would be an easier game for people. It's not, so clearly this is a specific skill as well. It seems a dubious distinction is being made because at the highest level additional assistance is required for that preparation (although always has been, even before computers).

I think the OP's line of argument is mostly a variant angle for attacking Carlsen by his committed band of detractors one can find across the internet. I've seen the same comment trolled in a less eloquent way in YouTube comment sections.

Wesley So was eliminated. And Hikaru has been stomping Abdusattorov in the semi-finals ...

So now Magnus and Nepo are fighting for the chance to battle Hikaru, for the FR Championship title.

I also think it's time that FIDE establish an official Fischer Random rating system ...

There definitely should be a rating list for it.

They could take ALL the known Fischer Random tournament results, no matter how far back, and start doing the math.  Not just start from scratch, as if the next tournament is the first one ever.  All this info is out there somewhere.

Even with the random assorting of starting positions in 960, there are still a finite number of possible ones, which over time can eventually be encapsulated into its own sets of "opening theory" ...then it will become as "stale"/"played-out" as Fischer claimed Standard Chess was...

Hey can we get chess.com to make it easier to find 960? It's not in the common or most popular tabs and I think having to type it in search to find it makes the amount of people playing it much less, and then it takes longer to get a match and is nearly impossible to play bullet 960.

I played baseball in school, and playing Chess960 vs. regular chess is analogous to hitting against a knuckleball pitcher vs. a regular pitcher. Knuckleballers can confound a hitter (until their pattern is detected; then they're done for), and likewise Fischer Random can confound a regular chessplayer. But in time even 960 can be adapted to, so it's mystique is overrated.