yeah, i kinda saw that, not really calculated it but like ive said, i see the contours of the position kind of a fuzzy idea of how it should happen but not the specifics...do you believe the guy that says he can calculate 35 moves in advance...CC or online sure i guess since you got an analysis board...but live or OTB...i dont know man i cant fathom it...maybe genius like alekhine fischer kasparov maybe even down to 2200 i just dont know...ima patzer trust me
How many moves ahead do you calculate
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I usual like to look at various option for the appropriate pieces about three moves ahead -
i can look 50 moves ahead but normally i look 10 moves ahead.
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this question to me is like asking how fast do you swim in a river. It just depends on how fast the river is flowing. the depth of thought varies depending on the position. if you have maybe one or two plausible ideas that are forced variations, then one could reasonably think many moves ahead. if it is a very sharp position, then there will be many variations to consider, so the depth will of course decrease. As far as intuition being used for the strong players, I would have to say it would be much higher than amatuers like myself. At one point in chess training, you will have to put in the calculative work. A Master has done a large amount of study and a large amount of practical play, so they have already put in the grunt work, and a fair deal of the simple mechanics of chess thought like recognizing patterns has become knowledge at a subconsious level. my point is that masters may appear to be playing 'from the gut', but this is after many years of tempering their sword. I think many amatuers forget the work aspect of chess and tend to fixate on the 'magic' at the board when the masters subconsciously apply what was hard earned knowledge.
likesforests wrote:
Chessnutx> Earlier a few have said they can calculate some 20 moves or more!
Here's exactly what I claimed:
"I often visualize 10-20 moves ahead before entering a pawn endgame. There are many technique like counting, key squares, stepping stones, etc. that simplify the process so it's not as difficult as it sounds."
"I calculated 21-ply deep in a pawn ending the other day and won by one tempo."
Chessnutx> Their rating doesn't seem to correlate that!
My earlier statement:
It's odd to me, that at your correspondence rating of 1341, you presume to know what players of ratings 2000+ should or should not be capable of. What I (2070) say above is true for me. As Loomis (2180) added, pawns endings are a special case.We should clarify that a "move" in chess is actually both white and blacks move. White moves first is actually half a move. Until black makes his move is it actually considered a whole move.
Earlier a few have said they can calculate some 20 moves or more!
Their rating doesn't seem to correlate that!
Dear Mr. likesforests,
Did I ever mention you specifically? I used the number 20 moves as an example. And your rating and calculative abilities do correlate with each other, so I don't know how you could ever think I that I was citing you in anyway. I'd expect anyone near 2000 rating to have such an ability. As for my odd low rating, well as you can easily see I've only completed 2 total games and lost to alejosolo who has only completed 4 games and hasn't lost. So who knows how strong he really is. Heck who knows what my rating will be after my provisional rating is completed. Best wishes in your future endeavors.
Apr 11, 2009
0
#68
It depends on the stage of the game and the complexity:
Opening - I use the games explorer a lot and also resort to my growing library of openings books, so if it stays 'with book' I'll only look 2 or 3 moves ahead. If it goes off normal lines or if I'm not very familiar with the opening then I'll look a little further ahead, but only for the most obvious moves that follow the basic strategy of the opening.
Middlegame - as soon as things get tactical my play slows down a lot and I spend as much time as I can analysing all the candidate moves - I'll study the position, make notes on the +'s and -'s of black and white (as suggested by Jeremy Silman), decide on a plan and then calculate the options that look as if they fulfill my plan as deep as I can using the analysis board (or a real board if I have one handy). This takes ages, but has been the main element in my improvement over the past year. I guess on average I'll look in 5 or 6 moves deep, but more if there is a forced (or really obvious) sequence. Sometimes the opening lines extend into the middlegame e.g. in a recent Sicilian Dragon tournament a couple of games went 15 moves or more before going off main opening lines.
Endgame - I agree with likesforests - there are some tricks you can use to look really quite far ahead without too much hassle. This is where I would look furthest ahead, again depending on how many forced or obvious sequences there are. I'll often play through the main options for 10+ moves (20+ ply), and will look at ALL the options in case I miss a tricky tactic that will lose me the game. This is where all the hard work from before can be thrown away in one move, so it is worth the time.
I have been playing since the 3rd grade but never "studied" Chess.
I'm sure some out there will call be crazy but I think planning too many moves ahead is almost like cheating. 4, 5, 6 moves ahead is one thing but planning out 10+ moves just seems wrong. It takes the fun out of the game.
If you are a professional then it is fine but with an online network like this it seems out of place. It's like one team in football getting extra timeouts to plan.
Most games played here are the one move every X amount of days variety. With that kind of set up one player could put in a lot more time thinking ahead then his opponent. It's not like we all have 60 minutes per game and a clock to punch like they do in live tournament games.
Chessnutx> I used the number 20 moves as an example... I'd expect anyone near 2000 rating to have such an ability.
Ahh, ok. I was the only one who had made clains involving the number 20 so I deduced you spoke about me--sorry for the misunderstanding.
Chessnutx> As for my odd low rating, well as you can easily see I've only completed 2 total games and lost to alejosolo...
Based on your play in those games, I believe your true rating will be closer to 1700 than 1400, but as you say only time will tell. Good luck! :)
Apr 11, 2009
0
#71
fury2701 wrote:
I'm sure some out there will call be crazy but I think planning too many moves ahead is almost like cheating. 4, 5, 6 moves ahead is one thing but planning out 10+ moves just seems wrong. It takes the fun out of the game.
Each to their own, but I personally find that it enhances my enjoyment of the game if I play a series of good moves based on good planning/calculation. My enjoyment of the game slips when I make a big error because I didn't look far enough ahead or missed an obvious tactic (especially if I overlook something in the endgame).
If you are a professional then it is fine but with an online network like this it seems out of place. It's like one team in football getting extra timeouts to plan.
I would tend to look at it the other way around. It's more like every team is given the same amount of timeouts, but some decide not to use them.
It all depends on what the oponent does but usually 2 or 3 moves . If you play a more classic game maybe up to 10 moves in the opening if your oponent accepts your opening .
Apr 11, 2009
0
#73
It's a clear win for white.
P.S. I do not calculate, but rather try to evaluate the position. Only when I see obvious tactics, such as possible captures, I do a simple math such as N of attacker = N of defenders, then the capture is impossible.
How many moves you calculate ahead ultimately has to do with the position. In the opening, there's not much to be calculated, as there are pretty much no tactical shots available unless one side grossly blunders in the first few moves. I mean, I guess if you've memorized 50 openings and 50 variations to those openings, I guess you could call that calculating ahead, but that has to do with higher-ranked players having to memorize moves and has nothing to do with tactics.
In a "simple" endgame, you could calculate as many moves as the games would last. You could see ahead all the moves for the rest of the game.
In the middle game, as a rule of thumb I'd say that you calculate as far ahead as the tactical shots you see. For example, if you see a way to win a pawn in 3 moves, then you're looking 3 moves ahead. If you see that your opponent is threatening to win a piece in 1 move, then you see 1 move ahead.
Not all middle game positions offer tactical shots, therefore, calculating moves in advance doesn't apply. In these positions, it's strategy that comes into play, to shift the position into one that is tactically charged, and will allow the better player, who can see 3-5 moves in advance, to take advantage of his or her skill.
brandonQDSH wrote:
How many moves you calculate ahead ultimately has to do with the position.
yes, 0 whenever.
1
My record is something like 16 moves ahead. The only problem is that I can calculate more than 16 moves, but everytime I try to, the action stops and there are no forced moves and so I can't really calculate any moves, cause there are no obviously best moves anymore.
I think everyone can calculate at least 10 moves ahead, if the action doesn't stop.
I usually calculate about 3-4 moves or so. I calculate deeper all the time but the calculations are somewhat inaccurate or more than that, I overlook key ideas of my opponents' deeper into a calculaton. Of course, with less pieces on the board it is easier to calculte more deeply depending on what pieces are left.
rich wrote:
I normally think 8-9 moves ahead.
LOL! That is such BS (not last post, per se, but this myth that people see like 20 moves ahead)!
I don't know if GMs calculate that many moves in advance, unless it's an endgame situation. Thinking 8-9 moves ahead implies that in every position there is a tactical shot which can win material/threaten mate in 8-9 moves and that you can both see that combination and have outlined all the opponent's optimal moves that still ultimately leads to his or her demise.
In a lot of middle game positions there's simply no moves that force material advantage, so each players has about a dozen move choices and a dozen move responses to each choice. This would mean you're calculating like 1,000 different variations during the time you have to think about your moves. That's a little ambitious task to accomplish in 1-5 minutes.
I always try to think 4/5 moves ahead, and at least 3 or 4 lines (if it's possible).
Before moving I simply see each piece of mine during 2 or 3 seconds (including pawns) and try to remember positions, posible moves (for me an my opponent).
Also, I try to visualize what my opponent is trying to do.
Combining this I usually get good results.
I recommend this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2KKfOGaR_w
Watch it all. He answers the question "how many moves can you see ahead".
jpd303, no you don't suck and yes you are right!
HoldemRulzOK, great explanation. :)