I wonder why algebraic notation?

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MDOC777
Metastable wrote:
Pre-Gallileo this was the accepted truth, and is reflected in the player-referenced meaning of the notation: Kings-4 means something *relative* to which player is thinking of it - either e4 or e5. In medieval days, the tradition was to develop quaint little names for everything as needed. Hence the proliferation of the units inthe imperial system: pints quarts, gallons, ounces, cups, and so forth just as an example. Or chains, rods, furlongs, yards, miles, - each related to the other by some non-uniform ratio. This is apparent in the naming "KN, KB, Q" etc in descriptive. Quaint little names gives the system a nice old fashioned feel :-)

I don't want to be picky, but I don't see the correlation between chess notation history and imperial measurement standards.

Metastable
MDOC777 wrote:

Why? Political postering is useless.

It may not be useless but I agree it is very annoying. I hate all those signs on people's lawns before an election.

MDOC777
Metastable wrote:

Another thing that just crossed my mind is that a game of Chess 960 would be very counter-intuitive in descriptive - should KN mean the "usual" KN file or the file where the actual N wound up in the current setup?

Yes, that's the ambiguity of it.  To me, KN simply signifies the knight currently on the kingside.

Ziryab

Inasmuch as every thread degenerates in much the same way, the few literary moments help me think of the humanity of bears.

Ziryab

Most of the time when I open a book written in the old short descriptive notation, I sense that my aesthetic sensibilities will require reprogramming after study of a few chess games. At least the long descriptive employed by Howard Staunton and his predecessors offered a poetic element. Once stripped bare of the imagery of of the village, the simplicity of a coordinate system seemed cleaner, and almost poetic. It was no surprise to learn later that it had first been advocated by German writers.

Maxx_Dragon
uhohspaghettio wrote:

I thought it was first proposed by and used by a French guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Stamma

The French were the first to propose eating those disgusting gastropods... snails! And they think that Jerry Lewis is God. That is why We will have nothing to do with the French!!!  >:[

trysts
Maxx_Dragon wrote:
 And they think that Jerry Lewis is God. 

I've heard that before, but I thought it must have been a joke. I watched about an hour's worth of Jerry Lewis films, and he was just silly and annoying. Not at all witty.

Maxx_Dragon
trysts wrote:

I've heard that before, but I thought it must have been a joke. I watched about an hour's worth of Jerry Lewis films, and he was just silly and annoying. Not at all witty.

You were actually able to take a full hour of Jerry Lewis? You do not strike Us as the masochistic type. :)

trysts
Maxx_Dragon wrote:
trysts wrote:

I've heard that before, but I thought it must have been a joke. I watched about an hour's worth of Jerry Lewis films, and he was just silly and annoying. Not at all witty.

You were actually able to take a full hour of Jerry Lewis? You do not strike Us as the masochistic type. :)

One of many errors I have made in lifeLaughing

trysts

Yes, the children have an excuse for liking Jerry Lewis, but the French have no excuse for calling him a geniusLaughing

Ziryab
uhohspaghettio wrote:

I thought it was first proposed by and used by a French guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Stamma

Yes. I should have said popularized. It was popularized by the German Handbuch and other state of the art publications.

fburton
FirebrandX wrote:

Now there's a 'Good Point'. Not like that ridiculous earlier attempt at a point about single moves listed by themselves being ambiguous in algrebraic. I'm still laughing over how that logic totally backfired since the exact same point also applied to descriptive.

Exactly! Ridiculous. I'm still laughing too. Laughing

If ink and syllables are that important, algebraic notation could be shortened even further by abbreviating non-ambiguous takes as "x", omitting the piece and square. Then the printed notation would match the spoken convention ("takes, takes"). Of course, that makes keeping track of context even more essential. Imo, conventional algebraic strikes the right balance - but maybe that's because it is what I have gotten used to (having started chess in the descriptive era).

Btw, I'd still like to know whether people playing black picture the board in the conventional orientation (white at bottom) with unrotated coordinates, or rotate the board and coordinate system in their head to place black at the bottom. The former would be more 'logical' as that is what books mostly do. However, it seems more 'natural' to me to visualize the game with my (or 'my', if I'm following the pov of another player) pieces closest.

MDOC777
chrisr2212 wrote:
MDOC777 wrote:

Why not descriptive notation?  That means moves like P-K4.  Why does U.S. Chess endorse algebraic notation instead? 

give you punks strawberry ice cream and you tell me why the hell didn't i give you vanilla ?

Personally, I don't have a problem with either flavor.  If you give me something, I'll thank you for it, provided it's not with malice and I know you.  My question in your quote was rather academic, not dogmatic.  If you observe this thread, people got angry when I not only point out algebraic flaws that I know exists in descriptive, but also reveal characteristics that only exist in one of them and not the other.  And all that just by being stupid.

MDOC777

I agree.

MDOC777

Good point.  When it's clear on the board that there's no second matching piece (e.g., only one rook), you can use R-Q1 instead of RQ-Q1 or R/1-Q1 (the 1 referencing the rank).  This is also true if there's two rooks and the second rook can't move there.  If you can't move a pawn on the king or queen side because of blockage and the counterpart pawn can, you don't need to add the the clarifying K or Q in the notation.

Ziryab
chrisr2212 wrote:

i started out with the descriptive notation and i liked that, having studied Fischer's "My 60 Memorable Games" and similar, written fully in descriptive. when i bought books written in algebraic, i was resistant for a while, not liking the format (probably because Fischer didn't like it) but it was just so widespread that i didn't care after a while and even started switching between formats during my games.

Wow! The world is diverse. I irrationally avoided playing 1.P-K4 for several years because Fischer advocated it (I did grow out of such nonsense). To embrace any notion of his that is not specifically about chess strategy because it was his view would have been anathema.

Metastable

Too funny! I started out playing 1.e4 because "if it was good enough for Fischer, it was good enough for me". It wasn't until I realized that I totally sucked at 1.e4 that I started playing QP openings.

fburton
Metastable wrote:

Too funny! I started out playing 1.e4 because "if it was good enough for Fischer, it was good enough for me". It wasn't until I realized that I totally sucked at 1.e4 that I started playing QP openings.

But Fischer played 1.P-K4 not 1.e4 - maybe that's where you went wrong? Innocent

thesnark63

Algebraic notation is dry, tasteless and nondescript I've. It's like reading a math problem in base two - I have to translate it. When black plays P-K5, I can visualize it. When black plays e5-e4, I must translate the "e" into a "K" and remember that the pawn isn't moving backwards. I'd like to see the chess apparently offer the choice to old Flintstones like me. And by the way, "apatosaurus" (deceptive lizard ) is not a scientifically accurate name- the brontosaurus who got busted, so to speak, did not deliberately switch skulls with a camarasaurus.

TonyH

hmm with that logic snark63 we can even go back further to the notation i have in one of my books where its written like this

White's King pawn to King pawn four     Black's King pawn to King pawn four

If you cannt picture algebraic in your mind then thats just a lack of practice.

I can do both and algebraic is inherently more logical and easier to grasp because of the lack of conflicts.