Insufficient Material

I have just been awarded a draw when my opponent ran out of time whilst I had only K and Bish. He had loads more  "material" but no time. Sure, I could not win with just a K+B but I could win on time - and did. His flag fell. 1-0 in my opinion.

What is the point of a clock if you do not enforce a penalty if your opponent does not handle it adequately?

We might as well forget them. No clocks, no time.

The "draw by insufficient material" upon timeout rule actually comes from FIDE rules. According to wikipedia,

"... article 10 of the FIDE laws of chess states that when a player has less than two minutes left on their clock during a rapid play finish (the end of a game when all remaining moves must be completed within a limited amount of time), they may claim a draw if their opponent is not attempting to win the game by "normal means" or cannot win the game by "normal means". "Normal means" can be taken to mean the delivery of checkmate or the winning of material. In other words, a draw is claimable if the opponent is merely attempting to win on time, or cannot possibly win except on time. It is up to the arbiter to decide whether such a claim will be granted or not."

Thanks for your reply macer75 - I appreciate it.

However, it does not answer my question.

Either there is - or is not - a penalty imposed upon a chessplayer when their "flag falls". Your explaination - quoting from FIDE laws sheds no light on this. You use (or they use) terms like "normal means" without defining what they are.You - or more probably, FIDE, are sitting on the fence here, as they always do. Leaving it to the Arbiter to decide. I note that you do not state exactly when the "loser" can claim a draw. Neither does FIDE. Ten seconds before the flag is going to fall? When the flag falls? Three days later? In their autobiography? Yes, starting to get difficult is it not?

If your flag falls you have lost. End of story. Or stop having a meaningless flag.

I have never - and I have played in live tournaments - ever experienced my opponent claiming a draw after they had ran out of time and because I had insufficient material.

If they cannot handle the clock - they lose. If you don't like that then stop using clocks. Or stop teaching all chessplayers how to use clocks.

I am good at clocks. I was not rewarded by my use of it. My opponent was rewarded by their misuse of it.

Thanks again

Well, one reason the rule exists is so that the side that times out isn't penalized for having "too much" material. For ex: one side has K+Q, and the other side has a lone K. If the side with K+Q rus out of time, he would lose had the rule not existed. However, if he intentionally drops his queen and the other side takes it then it becomes K vs K, an automatic draw due to insufficient material. So in this scenario, the side with the extra queen is penalized for having an extra queen. And if this scenario is ruled as a loss for the side with K+Q, then it's only logical to change the rules regarding K vs K draws, and make it so that the side that has more time at the moment when the position on the board reaches K vs K wins.

There was a penalty. He lost half a point.

Hey look folks,

You, for whatever reason, do not seem to understand the problem here.

BiggDoggProblem - No. He did not lose half a point - he gained half a point. It was me who lost half a point,

Your response (macer 75) makes no sense at all. If a K+Q against a K runs out of time then that is what they have done and they lose. You have made them use up that time. You gave them so many puzzles to figure out such that they just didnt have any time left.

I do not agree that a K+Q is somehow penalised for an amount of material that we can only dream about. I would hope that my opponent would have resigned or I could deliver checkmate whilst writing this.

Sure, dropping the Q would be an automatic draw - but if the flag falls before you do that, you have lost.

Think about it this way:

If A has K+Q, B has lone K, and A runs out of time, then

A is winning on the board

B is winning on the clock

and you're saying that B should win.

Now, if A and B both have a lone K, and at the moment when the game reaches K vs K (for ex, the moment when A re-captures B's last piece), B has more time on his clock, then

A and B are drawn on the board

B is winning on the clock

however the game is drawn.

Doesn't that seem a little... unreasonable? If we assume that in the first scenario B should win, then the only way to make the second scenario fair is to either have B win immediately (because he has more time on the clock), or have the two of them shuffle their Kings around until one side runs out of time, and the other side wins.

He had "loads more material" - so, judging solely by the position on the board, he should have won, right?

But he ran out of time, so he only got half a point instead of the full point.

Isn't that a penalty?

I agree you should've won as you still had mating chances

I've read this story - forgive me the details - of a guy saccing all his pieces for a beautiful bishop mate, only to have his opponent wait for ten minutes and lose on time to get half a point more due to this silly automated application of the rule that a bishop is insufficient mating material so the game ended in a draw instead. OK it was at least five years ago that I read it, so it is kind of rare

If you cannot give checkmate with the material you have on the board, then you don't deserve victory. The rule is correct. Accept it. 

Well, yes, technically there could be a helpmate. But practically - are there mating chances when you're down that much material? Not so much.

Except for the rare case you have cited, of course. OP probably didn't come up with anything that brilliant in his game.

If I am understanding you correctly, then that is not using the rule correctly.

The FIDE rule is:

"The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game."

So the game would be drawn if, for example, it was K+B vs K

But if it is, say, K+B vs K+B, then the game is NOT drawn, because a checkmate can occur under these conditions.

Not all websites use the full FIDE rules. Heck, even USCF has a different rule for insufficient material:

14E2. King and bishop or king and knight. [The game is drawn even when a player exceeds the time limit if the] opponent has only king and bishop or king and knight, and does not have a forced win.

This is why I like increments even in blitz.

If you cannot handle your clock then you do not deserve a draw. Accept it.