Intuition v. Calculation

Sort:
Rob_Soul
tonydal wrote:

One problem with talking about intuition regarding the tactics trainer is that it's already a given that there's some combo there (your intuition is being done for you, so to speak).  The only genuine test of it is during actual play.


Agree completely. This is the value of playing positions that do not have any clue besides "White/Black to move". Still not totally realistic (if you were playing the game you would at least have some plan that led you to the position), but the best thing to do when dropping someone in "cold" is to tell them which side is to move and leave it at that.

Alburt's "Chess Training Pocket Book" is good for practicing calculative ability precisely because of this same factor. There are no clues to the positions; you are simply given the side to move. Sometimes you are playing for a win, sometimes for a draw, sometimes for a positional advantage, and sometimes you are playing a lost position and just trying to find the best move to prolong the game... You do not know until you evaluate the position - almost like a real chess game.

Once you know there is "something" in a position, you are much more willing to search for it. And the timed aspect of Tactics Trainer does not help at all because if you see a timer counting down, you will likely be inclined to try and calculate one variation over and over again, looking for an advantage whether or not it might be there. Or worse - you may be inclined to just play a move because it "looks right" without calculating the consequences. Those players who occasionally do this in OTB play do not make said move in under 5 seconds, I guarantee. They may take 10, 20, or even 30+ minutes to look at a number of variations before deciding to play a move based on "gut instinct."

More than intuition, I might be inclined to say that creativity is the biggest key to finding the "right" move.

Politicalmusic
saidh wrote:
Politicalmusic wrote:
saidh wrote:

No, saidh is saying that intuition is the perfect word for it but that the posters are using the term incorrectly.

Your intuition doesn't "grow" as some people are saying, your ability does. Your intuition is simply a sense of knowing where to look, impending danger, possible opportunity etc. with no rational base (For the media crowd: Spidey Sense). What they're talking about is ingraining patterns into your mind and then having a vague sense of them in novel situations. This is wholly rational: it is conditioning, practice, second nature, etc. Intuition is not secondary, it is primary.


Ah my friend, but there seems to be a bit of a hole in that logic.  I do believe that intuition can be developed...you played a semantics game and said "refined." 

Intuition is unexplainable... I agree, but everything comes from something, even if it you can't explain where it comes from.  I think you mentioned earlier that capablanca was intuition... but he had to learn how the pieces move first and play games!


 Refined is not growing chum. Does a diamond get larger when you put it through the refinement process? If anything, refinement means making smaller, or more acute. In either case it is not growing.

Listen, you're confusing yourself. He had to learn how the pieces move, but that has little to do with his intuition. You cannot intuitively know waht life is after death because you are not in that realm yet. You may be a spectacular dead person, but how would you know until you are exposed to it? You're confusing intuition as natural ability with sphere it's applied to.


Agree to disagree.

Scarblac
Politicalmusic wrote:

I've always had a hard time calculation.  I've come to grips that it is one of my weaknesses.  Not that I can't think a head, but I have a hard time anticipating the best moves for my opponent sometimes.

Seems like I always don't consider that "one move" that will substantially change the character of the position for my opponent.  We've all been there... Your opponent makes some move that you didn't consider. 

[...]

I've notice that my "gut" feeling has improved.  So I am guessing that it's intuition.  At first I thought it was luck, but I've been consistently lucky with guessing for sometime.  I've noticed that I have frequently "guessed" the right move and later solved the calculation. I keep working at it though because there is usually a forced series of calculation on tactics trainer so it's disappointing when I get a problem correct by intuition sometimes.


Actually I think Tactics Trainer is pretty good at this, at the higher levels. If you guess the "obvious" move and don't calculate much, it happens rather often that there is some devilish defence, and you fail. Meanwhile there was a less obvious but working trick hidden there.

That got me from 2200ish to 2500ish in Tactics Trainer, the realization that I really needed to calculate the whole thing out and look for the surprising defences. It will teach you to calculate as well, since it's the only way to reach the next level :-)

Now whose idea was it to include endgame studies in tactics trainer...

marvellosity

Now whose idea was it to include endgame studies in tactics trainer...


I had a look at some of the high rated problems (2700+) and the large majority of them are studies, and ridiculously tricky ones at that. I've never been a great fan of studies anyway, but the ticking time of Tactics Trainer makes it even worse. That said, I've got an excellent record at the 2400-2500 type difficulty level of studies - they have foreseeable outcomes and I'm quite good at picking them off.

marvellosity

On the Politicalmusic vs saidh debate, I'm with Political on this one. Refined in the sense of chess intuition is much the same as growing. Chess intuition is not a diamond, that's a bogus analogy.

A 1500 player might have no qualms about playing Ne5 in some random position. An 1900 player's better developed intuition might warn him against it for some reason. And a 2300 player might have that dodgy feeling about Ne5 but sense that the h3-c8 diagonal might be important in that regard.

I don't get how this isn't become more refined and growing, it's the same.

A rank beginner has almost no intuition about any position, yet an experienced player clearly will. The experienced player's intuition isn't simply more 'refined', it has a much larger scope in general.

JG27Pyth
goldendog wrote:

"Intuition" in chess is almost a term of art in that it has it's own idiosyncratic meaning.

It often is used to describe moves that are, as ivandh says above, a result of a great deal of concious work that has been assimilated and can be called upon subconciously for a familiar position, or a position with familiar elements.

It's what the masters have called having a "move on your fingertips."


I agree with Goldendog here. Intuition has a chess specific nuance and Saidh's dictionary mongering has led us astray. Chess intuition is not magical reasoning, not irrational, unrrational or extra rational, chess intuition is not that prickly feeling on the back of the neck that tells you a piano is about to fall on your head (spidey sense)... chess intuition is a function of chess insight -- insight is the ability to see the salient characteristics of a  position clearly without calculation -- chess intuition involves decisions based on insight -- both (insight and intuition) grow with experience and training.

aadaam

Read #4. ALL the others can be disposed of.

Politicalmusic

Your coach, former world champion Garry Kasparov, says your strength is not calculation, but rather your ability to intuit the right moves, even if their ultimate purpose is not clear. Is that right?
I'm good at sensing the nature of the position and where I should put my pieces. You have to choose the move that feels right sometimes; that's what intuition is. It's very hard to explain. (Magnus Carlsen Interview with Time)

tryst
Politicalmusic wrote:

Your coach, former world champion Garry Kasparov, says your strength is not calculation, but rather your ability to intuit the right moves, even if their ultimate purpose is not clear. Is that right?
I'm good at sensing the nature of the position and where I should put my pieces. You have to choose the move that feels right sometimes; that's what intuition is. It's very hard to explain. (Magnus Carlsen Interview with Time)


That was a neat little article, Politicalmusic. Thanks for posting itSmile (The question about women and their "paternal instinct", was ridiculous)