Is Hikaru a top-50 player all-time?

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DanielGuel

I say yes, without a doubt. People love downgrading his classical, but he's been world #2 (in classical), and is pretty good at rapid and blitz.

Say all 16 world champions are ahead of him... that leaves 34 more spots. I'd be extremely hard pressed to come up with 34 players (historically) better than Nakamura.

Keep in mind this is not necessarily about accuracy. If it was, no one would argue Magnus > Fischer, Kasparov, etc. Based on whatever you think is "greatest of all time". happy.png

alphaous

I'd say you have a point. And tbh, he's probably a top-ten influencer.

JamesAgadir

For me this depends if you're talking about active chess quality  (this tends to increase over time as the game develops), talent (this is a rather arbitrary measure of perceived skill assuming all players were given the same information) or dominance (hugely dependent on era of play) and how much value you give to non standard time controls.

In classical Hikaru is the 10th highest rated player of all time for a reason. He's been an undoubtedly top player in an era where chess accuracy has skyrocketed thanks to computer. His talent in classical isn't as remarkable with him struggling against players like Magnus and not finding a remarkable niche in classical, he struggled to keep up with players from his era from a reason. In dominance he's been decent with a good peak and an era of consistent placement meaning he's in the conversation for his era, an era where chess has become more widespread and competition is more international and fierce.

His non classical performances are astounding in all categories. Only champions like Vishy and Magnus can match his consistent quality. His raw talent is immense. His lack of world titles being the only dent in his prestige, but his capacity to place first in the world in an era where Magnus has generally dominated balances it out.

I'd say if you're measuring only classical talent or dominance Hikaru isn't that impressive (I doubt he'd make the 2010s top 10 due to a lack of consistency, he spent a lot of the time outside the top 10 in classical). But as soon as you take into account quality of play in classical and non classical performances he's comfortably top 50.

alphaous
ForkingTable wrote:

yes but i am beter

Me too.

ChessBooster

would not agree, many good players were there other than WChs, competition too high to place him between top 50.  in each decade there were many of them.

but still he is brilliant, I think he still needs more continuity on the top

taseredbirdinstinct
DanielGuel wrote:

I say yes, without a doubt. People love downgrading his classical, but he's been world #2 (in classical), and is pretty good at rapid and blitz.

 

 

Say all 16 world champions are ahead of him... that leaves 34 more spots. I'd be extremely hard pressed to come up with 34 players (historically) better than Nakamura.

 

 

Keep in mind this is not necessarily about accuracy. If it was, no one would argue Magnus > Fischer, Kasparov, etc. Based on whatever you think is "greatest of all time".

There are other chess players out there better than Nakamura that you haven't considered, such as Schlechter, Pillsbury, Amos Burn, Rubinstein, Paul Keres and Korchnoi.

Even Ivanchuk was probably a stronger player than Nakamura, so were a few of Kasparov's old rivals.

DanielGuel
taseredbirdinstinct wrote:
DanielGuel wrote:

I say yes, without a doubt. People love downgrading his classical, but he's been world #2 (in classical), and is pretty good at rapid and blitz.

 

 

Say all 16 world champions are ahead of him... that leaves 34 more spots. I'd be extremely hard pressed to come up with 34 players (historically) better than Nakamura.

 

 

Keep in mind this is not necessarily about accuracy. If it was, no one would argue Magnus > Fischer, Kasparov, etc. Based on whatever you think is "greatest of all time".

There are other chess players out there better than Nakamura that you haven't considered, such as Schlechter, Pillsbury, Amos Burn, Rubinstein, Paul Keres and Korchnoi.

Even Ivanchuk was probably a stronger player than Nakamura, so were a few of Kasparov's old rivals.

27 more to go happy.png

taseredbirdinstinct

What's weird about Nakamura is while he may look dumb, he happens to be a world class top level super GM. I think pretty everybody agrees that Nakamura looks fairly stupid, he doesn't exactly look like he's particularly bright, does he? In other words he has a sort of vibe and look to him that says, "I'm dumb despite being a great chess player".

jay_1944

I agree with ya Daniel.  What is it about Naka that makes people love or hate him? It’s strange. 

But good point about being number 2 in classical at one point. People seem to forget this INSANE accomplishment. 

llama51
DanielGuel wrote:

I say yes, without a doubt. People love downgrading his classical, but he's been world #2 (in classical), and is pretty good at rapid and blitz.

 

 

Say all 16 world champions are ahead of him... that leaves 34 more spots. I'd be extremely hard pressed to come up with 34 players (historically) better than Nakamura.

 

 

Keep in mind this is not necessarily about accuracy. If it was, no one would argue Magnus > Fischer, Kasparov, etc. Based on whatever you think is "greatest of all time".

He accidentally peaked at #2 after a few good tournaments, yeah.

But he's a career 10-6 player -- bottom half of the top 10. I think we could pretty easily name 50 players  who had better careers than him.

jay_1944

Still my all time favourite Nakamura moment grin

llama51
alphaous wrote:

I'd say you have a point. And tbh, he's probably a top-ten influencer.

Wow, an influencer. Prestigious.

He should put on a wig, start wearing low cut shirts, and sell his bathwater.

landloch
DanielGuel wrote:

I say yes, without a doubt. People love downgrading his classical, but he's been world #2 (in classical), and is pretty good at rapid and blitz.

Say all 16 world champions are ahead of him... that leaves 34 more spots. I'd be extremely hard pressed to come up with 34 players (historically) better than Nakamura.

Keep in mind this is not necessarily about accuracy. If it was, no one would argue Magnus > Fischer, Kasparov, etc. Based on whatever you think is "greatest of all time".

In addition to the world champs, I'd suggest the following folks (and there may be others) have had greater chess careers than Nakamura. They were all in the top ten, often top five, for a long time and some played in world championships.

Bronstein
Fine
Ivanchuk
Keres
Korchnoi
Polugaevsky
Reshevsky

alphaous
landloch wrote:
DanielGuel wrote:

I say yes, without a doubt. People love downgrading his classical, but he's been world #2 (in classical), and is pretty good at rapid and blitz.

Say all 16 world champions are ahead of him... that leaves 34 more spots. I'd be extremely hard pressed to come up with 34 players (historically) better than Nakamura.

Keep in mind this is not necessarily about accuracy. If it was, no one would argue Magnus > Fischer, Kasparov, etc. Based on whatever you think is "greatest of all time".

In addition to the world champs, I'd suggest the following folks (and there may be others) have had greater chess careers than Nakamura. They were all in the top ten, often top five, for a long time and some played in world championships.

Bronstein
Fine
Ivanchuk
Keres
Korchnoi
Polugaevsky
Reshevsky

Geller is another name that comes to mind, and we should also put Morphy, and probably Andersson and Greco on this list, just for their impact on the history of chess, and of course their insane skill in an age of limited knowledge.

ChessBooster

Shirov

Aronian

Topalov

 

taseredbirdinstinct
ChessBooster wrote:

Shirov

Aronian

Topalov

 

Aronian is equal to Nakamura, I'm not so sure about Shirov, I think Shirov might be slightly better than him, although Topolov is definitely better than him.