Is using a computer to help you with your moves cheating?(like going to a website)
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how is there even a debate about this? if a computer helps you make a move in your game and your game is identical to the one you are looking up/analyzing, it's obviously cheating. the difference between a computer analyzing it to make a move is that it does it one move at a time and looking on a database for a win-game is just the same, if not more, as cheating. anyone who does that for a rated game will have their ass sadly handed to them the day they stop.
Mar 15, 2008
0
#42
atromos wrote: how is there even a debate about this? if a computer helps you make a move in your game and your game is identical to the one you are looking up/analyzing, it's obviously cheating. the difference between a computer analyzing it to make a move is that it does it one move at a time and looking on a database for a win-game is just the same, if not more, as cheating. anyone who does that for a rated game will have their ass sadly handed to them the day they stop.
I wondered the same thing as you, but from the other side of the argument. Why indeed is there any debate? The rules of the site are quite clear, and they are consistent with other correspondence chess (turn-based) chess. Why not take a look at them?
If I can survive an opening I can play a god damn good game of chess. I don't know openings very well at all, so I decided to learn them as they appeared. That way I know what is what and I can do it in a very smooth manner that doesn't force me to read an entire book at once and I think this has allowed me to understand openings better. Therefore I consult a wiki book to help learn openings. I like to read about what the opening is. That's how I found out that the F pawn is weak! If I didn't do it this way learning openings would be completely overwhelming, and I wouldn't be able to practice the rest of my game either due to the sore disadvantage caused by not knowing basic ideas. I don't think consulting a book for the first few moves makes me a cheater, especially when it is not done without any type of true consistency or complete reliance. I find it boring to do so often, but I'm never going to learn anything otherwise. Besides ,what should i be doing over the course of three days, waiting for my opponent to make their move, other than studying chess and thinking about what delicous moves I will soon be making. I think skorj, as mentioned by other people, said it best. I do not use a computer to calculate my moves, but I will learn openings to what minimal extent i can as I come across them. I have no problem with anyone doing that because this site is supposed to help you become better at chess.
if someone is playing like 5 games then he might be cheating but 30 or more u can not cheat everyone out
personally i think players should be able to study books , video , electronic trainers , and do as much studying , and home work , of openings , lines , end games , whatever , but once the game commences , you should only use your own mental recall while playing to consider your next move .IF after all that studying , you can not think of an appropriate move, i don't think you should be able to go and find the answer to the current problem in front of you , i am new to chess , and i no already the game is very complex , but in it's most simple form , it's a game of mistakes , if you cannot get your opponent, to make a mistake , during the game , because they can simply get up and browse through there books again to find the answer , then it's going to be hard work to break them down . IF however your opponent as to recall there counter moves by mentally recalling them as play continues , then you may have a better chance of your opponent makeing a mistake , and thus gaining a win . G FORCE
the question is "why do you play?" Is it to improve your game and have fun or just win? If you just want to win then register a user and get a computer play your games. If you want to improve your game and have fun then why would you want to use the assistance of a computer...
Mar 15, 2008
0
#47
Personally, if i found a friend of mine using an engine to generate the best move for them I would disown them. Straight up, it just "aint cricket".
Simply, using any kind of electronic help is cheating, isn't...
I think there are a couple of things to note in this thread.
1.) This is primarily a corresponcance chess site. Correspondance chess is, and always has been, a slightly different game than regular OTB chess. Corresponcance chess has slightly different rules than FIDE rules, namely, the use of books, databases, magazines, etc. during a game is acceptable. In fact the ICCF the "International Correspondance Chess Federation" technically goes one step further by actually ALLOWING the use of chess engines. (I say technically becuase their rules don't mention them at all, either for or against, so by default, most people take that as a go-ahead to use them).
2.)The rules, as they are set up here, are not unique at all. If you go to virtually any other correspondance (note, this excludes places like Yahoo!, FICS, ICS, etc., as these are not correspondance sites) chess site, the rules will be virtually idendical. I've played on just about every major site that exists, and this rule set- up is so common, that I am suprised if I find something different.
Now, if anyone would like to set up a group with people that exclude books and databases, and agree to be bound by those rules, that is fine, that is their right. But I would ask that they not ask others who do use these tools cheaters. By the very definition of the word, they are not. In fact all of the best correspondance players in the wolrd all have extensive databases and libraries and use them on EVERY move.
Another point, database games are not perfect! GM blunders, opponent GM overlooks blunder, 1-0 .... Annotated databases: annotations have mistakes sometimes! (Alekhine's annotations were notorious for careless mistakes)
Computer-checked material - e.g. MCO-14 ... the debate should start at this point. Not that i am interested in the debate - i only saw that this point was being missed.
rgp89 wrote: Simply, using any kind of electronic help is cheating, isn't...
including posting your move electronically :)
Does chess.com have staff to check postcard moves? [telegrams won't do - they are sent electronically - if telegrams still exist]
I think of "turn based" chess as correspondence chess. And in correspondence chess you've always been permitted to use books, including the ECO--that was just part of the great learning experience that correspondence chess offered. And correspondence chess produced some very high-quality games.
These days, it's email or turn-base chess, and I think this website's rules are a good compromise: No computer engine analysis, no help from another human. But books, databases--even computer data bases--are okay.(You don't have to ask; it's in the rules. See FAQs.) All those resources just become part of the enhanced learning experience that is a part of modern-day correspondence chess.
Now, having said that, I have to report that the ICCC (International Correspondence Chess Club) has decided to allow computer engine analysis, too. The theory is two fold: (1) they can't enforce a rule against using computer engines; and (2) computers are great at tactics, but pretty so-so at strategy. So the idea becomes not so much that you are a chess player, but more that you are an orchestrator of chess resources--including books, computer engines, databases, whatever. That idea holds some interest for me--kinda like field managing a baseball team, rather than being a player. But I'm still glad for Chess.com's approach to the rules. I just hope people honor it.
atromos wrote: how is there even a debate about this? if a computer helps you make a move in your game and your game is identical to the one you are looking up/analyzing, it's obviously cheating. the difference between a computer analyzing it to make a move is that it does it one move at a time and looking on a database for a win-game is just the same, if not more, as cheating. anyone who does that for a rated game will have their ass sadly handed to them the day they stop. I certainly see you're point if you're thinking of turn-base chess as OTB chess. But I don't think that's accurate. Turn-base is correspondence chess, and that's just a different animal. And I find that studying and using a database is far more educational than just asking a chess engine for the next move. What I get from database study sticks with me when I do play OTB--moves from a chess engine don't.
But to say that using a database is obviously cheating, when the rules specifically allow it, seems an indefensible position to take.
(BTW, I brain-cramped in my last transmission; I meant the ICCF--Federation, not Club. When I investigated it a couple of weeks ago, an administrator told me that they openly allow the use of chess engines now. But I like Chess.com's rules, for as long as they seem to be being honored.)
I think it is cheating if I wanted to play a computer then I would play with one but I want to play the person not a computer I think it cheating and I don't like playing that way but I never know if I'm playing with a person or a computer hopefully I'm playing a person
Well, yes, if you're playing against somebody's computer on Chess.com, then that person IS cheating under the rules. So is having another player analyze your game. But the debate above is about using books and databases, which is just a modern extension of what correspondence chess players have been doing for centuries. Correspondence chess can be really great--you have all the time you want for analysis. No hurry to get your moves in before: (a) the coffee house closes; (b) lunch hour is over; or (c) your wife says "We gotta go!" You know, 3 days per move really IS correspondence chess, so . . . why not just enjoy it as such?
want to play a computer i play chessmaster 10th ed - different personalities and ratings and all -- why would i want to go online for that?
everything short of physically locating and threatening your opponent is allowed on, say, ficgs [www.ficgs.com, not fics]
WELL; Sportsmanship is the name of the game, DONT CHEAT, just play a good play and have some fun!!!
Just to update, the statement of Chess.com playing rules has recently changed slightly--not in principle or spirit, but only in how the rules are expressed. They used to say that you may not use a chess engine to analyze a "specific position." Now they more broadly state that you may not use a chess engine "throughout the course of a game." See new rules statement, below
You many only have ONE Chess.com member account. You may NOT get any help from any person or any chess engine throughout the course of a game, including tablebases. You MAY use books, magazines, or other articles. You may also use computer databases (including Chess.com's Game Explorer). EXCEPTION: If both players agree for the use of a chess engine in an UNRATED game then it can be allowed.
By the way, this can still be found by clicking on Help in the upper right corner, then scrolling down the FAQs to about the eighth one regarding playing rules on Chess.com.
