Players who changed the game

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malibumike

I read an article talking about players who really changed chess.  If I remember they were:  Morphy, Steinitz, Nimzovich, Alekhine, Botvinnik and finally...the computer.  What do you think?

SirLewis

What about Fischer?

malibumike

Fischer was great....maybe the greatest, but he did not change anything.  Morphy taught us the open game.  Steinitz how to build on small advantages and plan.  Nimzovich introduced us to the hyper-modern strategy.  Alekhine gave us the dynamic approach.  Botvinnik showed us how to study the game.  The computer showed if can crunch numbers fast enough, strategy wasn't important.  Fischer just played the classical style to perfection,but nothing new.  IMHO!

Gambitknight

If you want to go far back enough, I think Phillidor qualifies.

In the World Championship era, I would add Lasker and Tal to the list as well.

As for Fischer, I think he qualifies as well.  Stylistically, it may be debateable how much he brought the game forward strictly in terms of theory and styles of play (though even then, I suspect he had a significant effect on the game), but if you look beyond that from a larger social perspective (professional opportunities and conditions, even demographics), his affect becomes almost unparallelled.

nxavar

So Fischer was such a successful player without adding something new to the game? I mean, he had no theoritical advantage over anyone (in terms of being ahead in theory) and still separated himself so much from his contemporaries? That's amazing!

raul72

Fischers opening preparation was what every player aspired to. Everybody knew what opening Bobby would play and they still lost. Is that not what players called "la creme de la creme." 

Bobby changed the game fundamentally in other ways as well---for instance, he made players millionaires. Karpov is a billionaire because of Fischer. He made many Russian players millionaires. Being a millionaire in Russia is kinda like going to heaven and actually having 77 virgens waiting for you! I kid you not.

Gambitknight

Estragon: Disagree strongly about Lasker.  He introduced into the game elements of pragmatism and psychology that you didn't see before.  In this sense, he's absolutely essential in the school that sees chess as sport or struggle rather than art.

raul72: I agree about Fischer.

raul72
+ Estragon wrote:
raul72 wrote:

Fischers opening preparation was what every player aspired to. Everybody knew what opening Bobby would play and they still lost. Is that not what players called "la creme de la creme." 

Bobby changed the game fundamentally in other ways as well---for instance, he made players millionaires. Karpov is a billionaire because of Fischer. He made many Russian players millionaires. Being a millionaire in Russia is kinda like going to heaven and actually having 77 virgens waiting for you! I kid you not.


Karpov isn't a billionaire.  Don't believe what you read on the internet.

Fischer didn't make anyone a millionaire except for himself.


Estragon, if I read that Karpov is a billionaire and you come on line and say he is not a billionaire---what do you think I'm going to believe? Pull you head out pal and take a deep breath of fresh air!Tongue out  You are the last guy on this site I would believe. You write more tripe than  any other guy here.

Because Fischer brought big money into chess Karpov became a millionaire. He invested wisely and became a billionaire. In one of his books he credits Fischer for making it possible---I believe it was Karpov on Karpov.

Fischer only made himself a millionaire? That is so stupid ---you're pathetic!

In Karpov's first defence of his title in 78' bothhe and Korchnoi made at least a million each. Fischer made that possible and they both acknowledge that fact.

Everytime Kasparov and Karpov played title matches they made millions and they both acknowledged that fact and that they owed a tremendous debt to Fischer.

I'm going to get a donation going for you Estragon---I'm going to encourage everyone to send you a chess book. I've never seen anyone so desparately in need of some good old chess knowledge. Wink

fyy0r
Estragon wrote

Fischer didn't make anyone a millionaire except for himself.


He helped make Spassky some money too!

TheWinningGenius

Computer? lol that is artificial chess. no fun

puppylover107
Fischer did change the game to unprecedented new level and drastically increased prize funds. Spassky earned 6000 US for beating petrosian and how much was the 1972 Wch prize fund? You can search wiki yourself. The Wch match after that have to keep up the standards
kyska00

The one that changed the game the most was the guy who watched the masters play and figured out how to write down their moves so others could study and learn from them.

raul72
Estragon wrote:
raul72 wrote:
+ Estragon wrote:
raul72 wrote:

Fischers opening preparation was what every player aspired to. Everybody knew what opening Bobby would play and they still lost. Is that not what players called "la creme de la creme." 

Bobby changed the game fundamentally in other ways as well---for instance, he made players millionaires. Karpov is a billionaire because of Fischer. He made many Russian players millionaires. Being a millionaire in Russia is kinda like going to heaven and actually having 77 virgens waiting for you! I kid you not.


Karpov isn't a billionaire.  Don't believe what you read on the internet.

Fischer didn't make anyone a millionaire except for himself.


Estragon, if I read that Karpov is a billionaire and you come on line and say he is not a billionaire---what do you think I'm going to believe? Pull you head out pal and take a deep breath of fresh air!  You are the last guy on this site I would believe. You write more tripe than  any other guy here.

Because Fischer brought big money into chess Karpov became a millionaire. He invested wisely and became a billionaire. In one of his books he credits Fischer for making it possible---I believe it was Karpov on Karpov.

Fischer only made himself a millionaire? That is so stupid ---you're pathetic!

In Karpov's first defence of his title in 78' bothhe and Korchnoi made at least a million each. Fischer made that possible and they both acknowledge that fact.

Everytime Kasparov and Karpov played title matches they made millions and they both acknowledged that fact and that they owed a tremendous debt to Fischer.

I'm going to get a donation going for you Estragon---I'm going to encourage everyone to send you a chess book. I've never seen anyone so desparately in need of some good old chess knowledge.


The Oregon public schools must really suck to produce such as you, sir!  The TOTAL prize fund for the 1978 WC match was $560,000 - the winner's share was $350,000.  Out of the purse - and Korchnoi's $210,000 share, they had to pay for their seconds and parapsychologists - and you know they didn't work for free.  Millionaires, you say?  Both admitted, you say?  Produce links to your proof, or admit you simply made this up.

The purses for the K-K matches -the first of which was 12 years after Fischer's last played game - had NOTHING to do with Fischer, and of course would have been larger had Fischer been competing in the process for them.  He didn't.  That was 100% HIS choice. 

You make many unsupported assertions, and expect me to accept them as fact - including that you "read" about Karpov being a billionaire?  How gullible are you?  Just because Susan Polgar posts it doesn't make it true - review her history with USCF for her record of veracity. 

To say it was Fischer that made his many-years-later-successors millionaires is tantamount to saying the first person who earned $1 million at anything gets credit for everyone else who ever earned that much or more in the field.  John D. Rockefeller was the first billionaire ever - do Bill Gates, Mike Bloomberg, and Donald Trump owe him anything for it?

However, if you are collecting donations for me, please forget chess books - I already own very many and they haven't seemed to have done so much good.  Just pass along the cash, and accept my gratitude. 


 Estragon, you dont really believe I'm going to accept any thing you say. I think your figures are wrong and I want you to cite your sources! Book and page numbers.

I'll cite a source for you---this was posted just a few weeks ago right here on chess.com.

 

6th March 2011, 01:31am
#2
by Estragon
United States
Member Since: Jun 2009
Member Points: 3149

Well, in 1980 Kasparov was still up-and-coming, so it would have been a Fischer-Karpov match which might draw sponsors.    Such a match would easily have commanded a prize fund of $10 million ($25 million in today's dollars).

 

Be honest estragon---Fischer would have commanded a ten million dollar match regardless of who he played. By the way. you do acknowledge writing this just a few weeks ago, right?Tongue out  Before Fischer, Karpov might have won $3,ooo for the championship match (like Spassky in 69'). After Fischer they made millions!Cool 

You say--- "I already own very many books and they haven't done much good."  Here is the secret---you got to read themYell 

Before dispensing anymore chess information around here---read a book!

Gambitknight

Estragon: as far as Lasker goes, he didn't create any "school" per say, but he did introduce an entire approach to chess which goes beyond his "psychological play."  If you look at Morphy, Anderssen, and the Romantic era, you see a drive to create art.  With Steinitz, Tarrasch, Capablanca, etc. it becomes a search for objective truth.  In Lasker, you see a third approach: chess as a struggle.  It wasn't just about playing the board anymore, it was about playing the opponent across the board.

As for the question of who shares in that approach: Korchnoi and Tal would be two obvious followers.  At a much deeper level, however, I think it's become a part of modern chess psychology: in the last world championship match, you have two moments which show this.  In game 2, when Anand blundered his opening preparation, there were quite a few commentators who called the queen trade brilliant, as it forced Topalov into more positional channels, where he eventually faltered.  (The fact that this was a breakdown in Anand's preparation is secondary to the reaction the move received from its audience).  Later, in the final game, Anand would play into the drawish Lasker variation and Topalov, not wanting so much to go into rapids, overpressed.  As a second example, you have Kasparov, who would occassionally catch opponents by surprise with "outdated" openings like the Evans Gambit or Scotch Game.  It's not just about what is best or aesthetically pleasing anymore, it's about what gives you the best chances against a specific opponent, and this approach largely stems from Lasker.

nxavar
chessmates wrote:

Fischer did contribute to the game of chess.Without him many of us would never have been playing chess at all. He brought chess from obscurity to the limelight in the world of sports.

We have something we call "Fischer chess". What is it all about? Don't you think that is his contribution?

There may be n o particular opening or variation named after him. But I feel that he was beyond all such openings and variations in him prime.

How sad it was for him to end in such a tragic way! I feel sorry for him.


 There's Fischer's Defence in King's Gambit as far as I know.

raul72
Estragon wrote:
Gambitknight wrote:

Estragon: Disagree strongly about Lasker.  He introduced into the game elements of pragmatism and psychology that you didn't see before.  In this sense, he's absolutely essential in the school that sees chess as sport or struggle rather than art.

raul72: I agree about Fischer.


 

The question wasn't who did something new and unique, but rather who "changed the game."  No one after Lasker was able to use psychology in any way approaching the extent he did, or with his results.

Who were the other members of Lasker's supposed "school?"


 Estragon, you say---

"The question wasn't who did something new and unique, but rather who "changed the game."  No one after Lasker was able to use psychology in any way approaching the extent he did, or with his results."

Fischer's  psychology was devastating! Estragon you really should brush up on your Fischer. Fischer's psychology was applied before he sat down at the chess board. Spassky said the removal of the front row chairs, the candy wrappers, The game removed to a small back room---a hundred such incidents destroyed his concentration. Fischer always did this---the size of the pieces, the chessboard, the lighting, women's high heels.

You know estragon, if you would keep your mouth shut, people would just think you're a dummy---but you have to open your mouth and remove all doubt.Tongue out

Nobody, remotely, compared with Fischer when it came to psychology. 

Deranged
raul72 wrote:

Fischers opening preparation was what every player aspired to. Everybody knew what opening Bobby would play and they still lost. Is that not what players called "la creme de la creme." 

Bobby changed the game fundamentally in other ways as well---for instance, he made players millionaires. Karpov is a billionaire because of Fischer. He made many Russian players millionaires. Being a millionaire in Russia is kinda like going to heaven and actually having 77 virgens waiting for you! I kid you not.


Actually, Fischer was very unpredictable. For example, everyone thought he was an attacking player and that he would play e4 as his opening, and some grandmasters even published a book on how to play against that. Then, in an important match, Fischer used the english opening as white 1. c4 and the alekhine defence as black 1... Nf6.

Mijin
Deranged wrote: Actually, Fischer was very unpredictable. For example, everyone thought he was an attacking player and that he would play e4 as his opening, and some grandmasters even published a book on how to play against that. Then, in an important match, Fischer used the english opening as white 1. c4 and the alekhine defence as black 1... Nf6.

Doing the same thing 99 times out of 100 does not make one "very unpredictable". 
That book you allude...let's say it was specifically written for playing against Fischer. I bet it would still have been useful even after one of his script flips...

SimonSeirup

Philidor is by far the one who changed chess the most. Before him, one just sacrificed for getting the others pieces to a little bader position.