shogi

shogi is sort of like chess in some ways. but the opposite of it in most ways. it seems to be at least 10 times as complex as chess as a result of "drops". I tried it. I made the best first move you are supposed to make in the opening theoretically speaking without knowing this in advance. but after this I had no idea what to do and kept trying to make apparently illegal moves. pawns capture fowards not diagonally. knights can't move sideways or backwards. most other pieces move like kings. the only pieces I felt comfortable with were the bishops, lances and rooks.

would take a really long time to learn; much longer than it takes to learn chess actually, but this may be because of the paucity of good english instruction/teaching resources.

and people who have been playing for a while will destroy you very quickly; before you even know what happened. just as people who have been playing chess for a while will destroy someone who hasn't yet played a game.

not sure if it's worth pursuing unless something like shogi.com comes along in the near the future.

Played both Shogi and Chinese Chess. Both are really good games and every bit as good as chess. However, like you say there is a lack of English learning materials. Hence, I stopped because it would be difficult to progress.

Oh yeah, I've tried all three too. They have their pros and cons.
Compared with chess:

Shogi...

1. Pawns are not linked. You have to spend a lot of effort in maintaining a good line.

2. "Drops" can happen anywhere, even behind enemy lines! You can combine several "drops" for mating attacks.

3. Promotion doesn't really improve your pieces.

4. Defence is pretty much stuffing your king in the corner with guards (like castling)

5. Hard to form batteries that stretch across the board.

As for Chinese chess...

1. The "cannon" = cool x-ray attack

2. Only 5 pawns a side. Once they cross the river they can move sideways.

3. Continuous sacrifices = no attacking pieces left = draw more likely

4. Kings can't face each other directly. Death stare?

5. You can "immobilize" certain pieces by blocking their paths.


If you can't understand Chinese/Japanese, I guess it's pretty hard then

understanding isn't the problem....although there's something going on with it that's not making sense to me....there seems to me certain restrictions on where certain pieces can move when other pieces are around them---moves that would be legal if this other piece wasn't sitting two squares away or something....I think there are certain rules that I don't know--kind of makes it hard (or, perhaps, impossible) to play if you don't know all the rules....it is actually difficult to find a succinct and concise list of all shogi rules....as you alluded to in one of these comments there's not a lot of instructional material in english....without this it would just take too long to learn how to play decently......

the time controls for pro shogi games are even longer than that for pro chess by a couple of hours on average--- I've been reading about shogi games lasting 9 hours.....players spending 2-3 hours calculating a single move.....

there's no "shogi.com" and it would just take too long to learn to play it decently (at even an elementary level).

but I still kind of think japan got chess "more right" than did europe. I think the rules and concepts of shogi are actually superior to that of western chess. both are awesome games, but I think the japanese and chinese went that extra distance in terms of their development of chess; really thinking about every little thing and getting everything exactly right, distilling it to it's purest form. which makes sense since chess, shogi, xengqi(?) and all these types of board games have the most in common with martial arts and japan/china are the home of martial arts...

...which makes me think the japanese game "go" might even be a level higher than chess in certain ways....it obviously was something they developed after having developed shogi..... 

I don't think most people have to worry about what was concerning fischer in terms of opening preparation and why he developed fischer random----he was fischer, elo of 2800-2900 at his strongest, unless you become a super grandmaster you don't really have to worry about this, it doesn't affect your game. 

white moving first is an advantage but it likely isn't going to be much of one given certain contexts...it really depends on the specific circumstances/conditions on whether it is a large advantage or not....most people don't know how to hold the advantage of moving first and will likely allow black to equalize very quickly. (....other people know exactly what they are doing (and possibly also what their opponent will likely do) and have it all very well planned well in advance so as to avoid any and all possible risk.....)

most positions end up being completely "randomized" within 5-10 moves in most cases. if you are talking players of 2200 elo or below (99.99% of earth's population) then in most games, under normal conditions and circumstances, the position will be sufficiently "randomized" by move 12-15 with it being a totally new position that neither player (and possibly anyone else in the world) has ever seen before.

I don't think this is a valid concern or complaint about classical western chess. taking into consideration everything I've read and heard in my life I don't think anyone but fischer and other super grandmasters have any right to gripe about opening preparation's effect on the game.

Let's speak about shogi.

There is no effort to spend for this. Because pawns are not linked, there is no (good) line!

Keep your pawns close for defense and raise pawns on the other side for attack.

Promotion is very important and the first step to win.

Especially rook and bishop become very strong when promoting. Also other pieces (like pawns) become much stronger, killing the enemy kings castle.

I assume you missed the main big differenc between chess and shogi:

chess is more statically, shogi is more dynamically - chess is more strategic, shogi more tactically.

In shogi, time is more important than pieces.

(Even if you have a "won game", almost in all games your opponents get a chance for counterattack and you never will be "save".)

(In chess this kind of tactic are called "gambits", which is the common way to play shogi.)

So in this words you are right when saying, promoting your pieces (other than rook and bishop) far away from the enemy king doesn't help much.

Attacking directly the king's castle, promotion become very strong.

Still (because of famous HIDETCHI, making a lot of shogi videos on youtube) shogi become more popular in western world.

On 81dojo.com you can also play with westerniced pieces (no kanji).

There are about 10 good books in english language. Indeed (compairing with chess) not many, but still you need some time to study them all. Also there are some german books available. Furtheremore in internet there are a lot of material.

And one more thing: shogi can be well played using handicap

While in chess a piece-handicap is creating a much different game, this isn't the case in shogi. Of course the opening will be much different, but because of reusing captured pieces, the pieces are also mixing in even games, say: looking at a board position in the middle of a game, you can't immediately say if it's handicap or not. You have to search the unused pieces.

In Xiangqi, there is only ONE place, where you can block a knight.

For the move Ng1-f3, only g2 must be empty. So you can do the move g2-g3 and f2-f4 is not needed.

Also one pro for Xiangqi: you can give multiple-check (maximum 4 checks at same time).

But most bad for Xiangqi are the "extended rules". This are absolutely terrible, the worst "rules" I've ever seen. The still are not real rules, but more a collection of examples.

For people who learn chess first and then try to play Shogi, they would find the asymetrical moves of some Shogi pieces very troubling. Xiangqi perhaps doesn't present such a hurdle. Xiangqi hasn't been as popular as chess because (A) there isn't much of a united front to promote it . The different associations just aren't ambitious enough to make it big. (B) No one tries to popularize the pgn format for Xiangqi and there are so many format variants , a situation which puts people off.

I know the rules of Xiangqi very well. 

Wrong!

A Knight in Xiangqi (!!!) moves one space orthogonally (horizontally or vertically) and then one move diagonaly (away from source, not backwards to the two squares beside the source square).

So the knight has to cross therefore only one place, which have to be empty.

In your example, the black knight is not allowed to take the red knight, because there is a (transparent) piece blocking him (red arrow).

But the red knight can take the black knight (green arrow).

In Xiangqi it could be happen that one piece repeatingly attacks an other piece which can't escape (simplest one a rook along a line attacking a cannon).

To avoid having thousand of games ending in draw, such repeating is often not allowed - but there are cases, where it is allowed.

This are the "extended" rules and not clearly defined - and furthermore bad, there are DIFFERENT ones.

Read it here: http://www.clubxiangqi.com/rules/asiarule.htm
(And that's by far much more than all shogi rules.)

Tell me, if you can answer all 104 diagrams correct. A few of them are really hard to explain, where I've asked a Xiangqi lover and also he couldn't answer it and have had to ask one special person.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Your diagram is explaining the rules and that's right.

The red arrow shows how the black knight have to move and the red "X" says, that's not allowed. The green arrow shows same for the red knight and the "ok"-sign show that this one is allowed.

Hmmm, it's hard to name it "variations".

You should understand when READING it.

It's maybe similar to the 50-moves-rule in chess. This rule was created to stop wasted play and it shouldn't change anything in the result, say each won position should be mate after 50 moves after last take or pawn move.

Unfortunately that isn't true. With computers we found position which can only be won with more moves. So there was also a time where this rule was changed.

Would you call this than a chess variant, when instead 50 moves, 60 moves are allowed?

Still, there are asian extended rules and chinese extrended rules making it difficulty to play games for world champion. (Or what you suggest, if maybe amercians are playing 50-moves-rule, while european changed to 60-moves-rule?)

Asian and Chinese rules are similar, but not exactly the same.

I gave you the link already: http://www.clubxiangqi.com/rules/asiarule.htm

Read it, please.

The "interesting" things are in Chapter 4, Section 4.

Diagrams are there, where written diagrams.

Follow the link.

Or if you prefere, use this PDF instead: http://www.asianxiangqi.org/English/AXF_rules_Eng.pdf

---

Hmmm, I thought speaking about shogi in this thread ...

I was spoking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty-move_rule

No, this was only an example about how easy it could happen, that there will be different rules, without changing much in practise.

Don't know.

I've read the opening thread and added some words about shogi which I expect could be interested for chess players.

I'm a shogi-player - I haven't any questions about shogi (and if, I wouldn't expect answers here). But maybe the chess players here would be interested in knowing anything special which an "experienced" shogi player can answer.

By the way: Chess, Shogi, Xiangqi and also Go are all very nice games

(Maybe one is interested into this book: http://www.shogifoundation.co.uk/4gg.html - not from me, I don't earn anything for this advertising)

The all have advantages and dissadvantages and I never would say this or that is better. I only say, currently I prefere shogi.

I used it as an example for chess (!) - "this extended rule" in xiangqi are similar than "that 50-moves-rule" in chess. In my eyes, both are NOT creating new variants.

All games could get improvements from the other.

I remember my first chess game after a long time I didn't play chess. I often felt thinking like the following: "then I take f7 with my knight, the king takes ... and I'm left with a knight less."

In shogi it's so typically to sacrifice pieces to weaken the opponents king position. But in chess you must be much more carefully about not losing any material.

As told before, I don't mean anything about draw / move length. It was to think about what is needed to call it a new variant.

Shogi is more tactically, chess more strategic.

Playing shogi can give you the idea, that the game can also be won by direct king attack and "not only" by strategic maneuver getting one pawn more which will win in the endgame.

Playing chess can give you the idea, not making only kamikaze attacks and sometimes "slower is better".

upon further reading it seems evident to me that shogi and xangi(sp?) are at least 20 times as complex as chess.

for example a standard time control shogi game is around 6-9 hours as compared to 2 hours for chess. competitive players are only going to allot the actual needed time for such activities; if it could be done on a high level in less time why would they bother? this is evidence that it just takes longer to analyze shogi and xanqi(sp?) positions than it does for chess positions.

a standard go game lasts even longer than shogi games. 10-15 hours or longer.

this doesn't change my assessment that shogi and xangqi are ten times more complex than chess. and go even more complex than shogi and xangqi.

I do not know what it means to say "chess is a much more solid game".

seems to me the japanese chinese and koreans perfected and developed chess and the "art of board gaming" as far as it can go. the end result of this particular cultural process, which happened through 1000 years or so, was in fact the board game go.

chess came into europe and became the "mad queen chess" that we all know and love today.

chess came into japan, china and korea and became shogi, xangqi and go. games that are much more complex than modern western chess.

this isn't because europeans are stupid and japanese chinese and koreans smart. it's just that for whatever reason they apparently had a much greater and deeper interest in developing "the art of board gaming".

europe came up with something that was sufficiently complex to entertain and bewilder any human and went no further. the japanese chinese and koreans went way beyond something that was just sufficiently complex for humans and came up with something that even modern computers cannot handle.

I've played all three games mentioned as well as Thai chess called Makruk and Korean chess called Janggi. I see how any of these games can be appreciated if the player knows the basics beyond just rules. I played the games on iPhone and computer software.

They all clearly descend from same chess origin. Pieces are similar. Moves are similar. Chinese chess xiangqi, Korean janggi and Japanese shogi have flat pieces with symbols on them. Makruk is very similar to Chinese chess in positioning but uses very familiar carved playing pieces.

Shogi is interesting of course. It is indeed more complicated because of the strategy diversity and average games lasting many more moves than average International chess. But the greater complexity does not make a better game. Because it is more complex it is also more "chaotic", and I don't think it is a good thing. It is less elegant I guess.

Chinese chess is actually more precise in that it requires very accurate moves and often losing one piece can mean a lost game. It is also shorter because pieces are exchanged more often at first. To me it seems there is less room for gradual build up of positional advantage. There is actually good amount of literature in English language for Xiangqi. But most of it is not sold in print somewhere but rather the American xiangqi organization provides free electronic versions of many instruction books and annotated games on their site.

Janggi is almost identical to xiangqi but the pieces have more freedom of movement similar to international chess or shogi. It almost exactly corresponds to the geographic position of Korea in relation to its neighbors when it comes to similarity in chess. You can also decide in what order your minor pieces (Elephant/advisor, horse/knight, and took/chariot) are. You can put them in any order as long as they're same in both sides of the board. King and his guards stay in same position. King is also not shut in its "palace" in center of the board in first three ranks like in Chinese chess. There is probably least amount of literature about Korean chess because even in Korea very few people seem to be playing it. Maybe because they take Go/Baduk very seriously.

Makruk is like a mix between Korean chess and international chess. Pieces are similar to Chinese and Korean but there are more pieces that move diagonally and the king is very active in end games. The game pretty much becomes a very intense endgame very quickly and this endgame can last many moves. Aesthetically it is very nice and the pieces are actually on squares on an 8 by 8 board.

After having spent much time on each on iPhone apps playing against engine I think that Xiangqi is most balanced and most interesting of all these regional chess variants. I'd say it is same complexity as international chess.

For each of these games you can always find versions which have western chessmen outlines on them so that you don't have to think what symbols identify what on each piece. That's not an issue.

The biggest issue is deciding whether any of them are worth investing time in if you already play international chess. One that seems to be most worthwhile is also Chinese chess because apparently so many Chinese and Vietnamese people in their respective countries as well as in diaspora play xiangqi that you'll be able to find tournaments and opponents either if you live in a big city with Chinese or Vietnamese population or if you are willing to travel for events.

Perhaps you've heard of the very popular event called World Mind Sports Games. They play international 10x10 checkers, chess, go, bridge, and recently also Chinese chess. Not sure what else. It is organized by International Mind Sports Association.

Still we can be very thankful to colonization and globalization (no sarcasm intended) for having the chess we play as most common in largest number of countries world wide.