Should I get Fritz?

Hello all. I realize this might get asked a lot, but I couldn't find any definitive answer. I'm looking into a chess program to help me imrpove my game. Not necessarily to play against, because I prefer playing against people, but just to analyze my games, alert me of bad moves, etc. Now I heard that Chessmaster is better at teaching beginners, but I don't know what is considered to be "beginner". I suppose I am rated at around 1200-1300 so would Fritz be good for me? Or am I better off with Chessmaster?

If you do recommend Fritz, which version is gives the most bang for my buck? Should I get the newest version (Fritz 12) or go with an older version and save some money?

Thanks for any responses.

If you just want to analyze games, you'd do fine with CM8000 or CM9000.  They're supposedly stronger than the later versions of CM that came out.  They have an analyze mode and run the game through that.  But, don't rely only on that to do your anyalyses.  Those are great supplements especially for tactics. 

If you want to understand what you're doing, get a basic book on the openings or look it up on-line to find out what the objectives are for a particular opening and its variations.  Then, use the method of past Masters Howard Staunton and Frank Marshall to go over each move step by step.  I outlined that here:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-analysis/please-help-me-analyse

(But, I guess the guy wasn't really interested in doing a proper analysis.  Anyway, I forgot to mention that there's another "g" to remember and that's "gotcha" as in a surprise moves like zug zwangs and in between moves.)  Otherwise when your opponent doesn't play by the book you won't know what to do next like here and you'll lose a game you should have won:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/ruy-lopez-marshall-attack

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/kings-indian-defense4

Mike

Recent versions of Chessmaster contain a wealth of educational material that stands apart from the playing and analysis features you mention that you're looking for specifically:

• Extensive course on the basics of chess taught by International Chess Master Josh Waitzkin.
• Tutorials from Josh Waitzkin's groundbreaking book The Art of Learning.
• Attacking Chess course commentary by Grandmaster Larry Christiansen.

If you consider this material of value and feel you would gain something by reviewing it, you might want to give Chessmaster serious consideration.

If, however, you really are focussed more on an instructive sparring opponent, amazingly good natural-language game analysis, and practical mentoring features, then Fritz is the better choice in my opinion. 

If you improve enough, you will ultimately outgrow Chessmaster.  That won't happen with Fritz. 

Hm, Chessmaster 10th edition is very cheap, so I might get both. I'd still appreciate it if someone could tell me the differences between Fritz and Chessmaster. Or if Fritz is even of use to someone with a low rating such as myself.

An older version of Fritz will do. They have the same features than the last one. Just make sure they work with your OS.

I don't know about Fritz.  A few years ago, CM9000 beat US Champ GM Larry Christiansen in a three game match.  I figured that made the program strong enough for me. 

But, I found one of the irritating things about CM is that if you have it beat and you're in a stronger position, the program will lose on time--- I've seen instances where it would take over 2 hours and not even make a move!

Mike

OK, here's your definite answer: Get Rybka instead.

It's much better in terms of chess strength - and the ability to provide humanly comprehensible analysis.

If you're not going to play against the computer but want to have high-level analysis of your games, then just forget about CM, it's useless in that area. However, the tutorials of Waitzkin on CM are second to none.

Fritz is designed, marketed, and supported by chess professionals. Chessmaster employed chess professionals in its early design, but was purchased by a gaming company.They care more for the world of gaming than that of chess to which they remain marginal.

Although Chessmaster is regarded as kid-friendly and has many teaching features of interest to the novice, it cannot compare to Fritz any more than a high school baseball team can compare to the NY Yankees. The high school team may deserve your affections, but you don't want to put them up against the Yankees unless you think there're benefits that stem from a massacre.

Having said this, I have an appointment with Chessmaster later today: game 3 of a grudge match against one of its nefarious "personalities." I'm leading 2-0, but when I played my first eight games against this cyberpatzer, I lost five and drew three. Now that I take the games seriously, I'm winning easily.

I recently wrote a comparison of the analysis features of Fritz and Chessmaster. See "Chessmaster versus Fritz: Analysis."

I have Fritz 10 and Chessmaster Grandmaster Edition: The Art of Learning.

I think what you are looking for is Fritz. I was able to pick up Fritz 10 a year ago for $20. I would recommend Fritz 11 if the price has come down. Fritz 12 would be useful if you want access to the Playchess server. Otherwise, I wouldn't spend $60 just for the game. Fritz is designed well and has a nice interface. It has all the analysis tools you will need. Rybka is a stronger engine, but you will not notice the difference until you are a high level player.

I bought Chessmaster for the learning materials. I was able to pick up a copy for about $20. The tutorials are alright, but nothing I couldn't have learned better from a book. The interface is not as nice as Fritz. I also use Chessmaster when I want to play against the computer. Although Fritz can do this too, Chessmaster has a host of personalities that come closer to imitating actual human opponents than Fritz does. Chessmaster has some game analysis tools, but they do not compare to Fritz.

How many humans give up a knight for a pawn on move eight, but otherwise play reasonably well? Not well, of course, but better after the blunder.

Why don't you play that opening against a personality named Fischer, Alekhine, or Karpov?  You'll find the quality of play increases dramatically and blunders like that don't happen too often.

Mike

i think you'd like chessmaster better myself, and it comes with a MUCH lower price tag.  here is a review i did:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/786899/chessmaster_10th_edition_product_review.html?cat=19

All engines play well at their top settings. However, getting them to play realistically as a weak human defies the skills of programmers. There is a common belief that Chessmaster does better than Fritz in this respect. I dispute that belief.

I play against Fritz and Hiarcs on its strongest settings from set-piece positions. Fritz and affiliated engines do several things well that are beyond the capabilities of Chessmaster:

1) access tablebases that the user added after purchasing the program

2) learn (see "Okay, Not So Easy" for an example)

3) seamlessly access user installed databases (a source for set-piece positions--see "Back to the Mines")

4) manage time. Fritz would never lose on time in the position that you give, and does not have the tendency to freeze as Chessmaster will if other programs are running.

"Whither the Truth" examines a position from a human game where stronger computer/software combinations may produce different answers.

I've got Fritz 11 and Chessmaster 10 and I don't get much use out of either of them because I'm not a computer geek. They look good on the shelf though.

You don't need to be a computer geek to use those programs.

I have never seen CM lose on time...

Read post #6 and #11. It's to those I was responding. MikeAp001 presents a game where Chessmaster lost on time after very few moves in a drawish position.

I have not seen CM 10th edition lose on time, but frequently experienced such with older versions. Usually, the cause is the program's tendency to freeze if another application is running. Every version of Chessmaster has been a RAM hog.

CM9000 can lose on time.  You set up the time controls for each player.  In tough positions, CM9000 will use up it's allotted time in this case 40 moves in a 2 hour game.  When that happens, it loses on time.  But, I like to see how long it takes for the computer to make what it consideres its best move.  In the "drawish" position which I won after trading off the Rooks and using the connected center pawns, after it used up its time I set it to infinite time and it took over two hours to play 21... Rf7.  Then, to make certain that my win was legit, I set the computer to play itself at the position and see how things turn out.  Under CM White won a lot faster than I did.

Mike 

Mike,

I'm running a shootout from the final position of your game. Shootout is another nifty Fritz feature wholly absent in Chessmaster.

The engines performing the shootout include TogaII, Crafty 19, Fritz 9, Hiarcs 12, and others. I'll post the results here when finished.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll have Chessmaster 10th edition take a look too.

21...c5 was TogaII's immediate move. After 36.Rxg7+, its evaluation switched from +0.36 to 0.00

Six engines: Toga II, Crafty 19.19, Fritz 9, Hiarcs 12, Rybka 1.0, Fruit 2.3

Time: five minute blitz

Result: five draws, one white win

Longer time control commencing now