The "draw" deserves a better reputation

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AngeloPardi

I don't mind about draw. In fact, I think that chess is a draw with best play for both sides, so a draw is a logical conclusion to a game. 
But there are different kind of draws :
- there are sharp draws full of sacrifices, surprises and suspens. Those are the best to see and the most interesting.
- there are long games without much happening, with one player pressing a slight advantage and the other defending precisely. Those may seem boring, but they are often full of hidden subtilities. They are not as eye-catching as sharper games, but there are often more correct.

- there are draws, where the game seems to collapse in a drawn endgames after a bunch of early exchanges. The typical patzer that I am don't understand why and may think it is boring, but GM can explain that any other choice from one player would result for him in a worse position.

- there are draws where one player only need a draw to win a tournament or a match, and chose an opening which lead to a drawn position. He don't want to fight, but hey, those guys are playing to win, they won't take risks to please the crowd if they don't need to.

- and then there are draws where both players are not in a mood to fight. They agree to a draw in a position that is probably equal, but still complex, and left chances for both sides. Those draws are justified when they are part of a match strategy - go to the rapids - or when one of the players has just played a hard 113 move long game the day before and needs a rest day.

Dutchday
NomadicKnight wrote:
Vo1d3mort wrote:

After the 2nd draw in the Anand-Carlsen match there seems to be a lot of anger and upset on forums, comments and even media articles because of the draws.

We as the viewing chess world are putting the players under strong pressure to force wins, give us blood, wild mating attacks and entertain us with stunning queen sacrifices. We put them under the weight of expectation to an extent that the players had to apologize for the draws in the press conferences (Carlsen did that after round 1, Anand after round 2).

 

I think this is going in the wrong direction, chess is not a bloodsport and a draw (not speaking of prearranged draws) is a sign of precise play and absence of heavier mistakes. It is not easy to draw a Carlsen and Anand for anyone of us and if they draw this doesn't have to be a game without the "fighting spirit". The draw should be seen as an respectable result for the black player and not a sign of a "wasted game". 

As a viewer I'd not be happy if a player, who has a slightly worse position, decides not to "pull the emergency brake" (as Carlsen called it) and force a draw if he can, but plays on - just to please the commentators and the bloodthirsty spectator crowd.

Very well put. I think the "anger and upset" is because people expected that bloodsport style of play like you mentioned. But if you look at heavyweight boxers, they don't go head to head, but instead try to finesse each other... going head to head with an opponent with such a powerful punch would be foolhardy unless you knew darn well you could deliver that knockout blow.

Actually, it really depends on the style of the pugilists. A heavy fighter does not have to win on points, if the match turns into a slugfest. Much lighter fighters are usually not natural knock outers, which means they can afford to make more techniques in the match. While this may look interesting, the lack of the impact can be a little off putting. I think we all know that ''winning on technique'' is not appreciated by all. Textbook example is Dr. Vladimir Klitschko, a technical fighter and a real heavy weight who uses his forehand a lot to control the distance. He scores his points and does not get hit often, but he never gets into a typical slugfest. This means many of his matches are just not that spectacular.  

We should consider Anand and Carlsen aren't natural heavy weights. The matches will be technical and the players will try to gather their points the best they can.  

Talfan1

in the first game Anand could have kept the knight on a5 and played rook e8 to prepare e5 i can see Anand being happy to draw as black granted but wasnt this better (RE8) than repetition draw

Ziryab

I found the truth in today's game (the mark of the beast):

ElKitch
  1. Can you explain that image, Ziryab? edit: nvm 666 :)

My opinion on draws has already been posted by others: a draw can be interesting when it's hard fought.

I still think a slight change of rule could make chess much more interesting to watch.

Ziryab
ElKitch wrote:
Can you explain that image, Ziryab? nvm 666 :)

 

The image shows the number of games and White's scoring percentage in the database for Black's candidate moves at move 7 in today's game. Carlsen played 7...e6.

Here's an excerpt from my comments.

In today's game, Anand had to stare down the devil himself. The diabolical Caro-Kann transforms White's initiative into an opportunity to make the first weakening moves. Black maintains a superior pawn structure. So long as Black can avoid sacrificial attacks that expose his king to danger, he will have the opportunity to start squeezing that turnip.

niceforkinmove
fabelhaft wrote:
Looking at the final move sequence today one doesn't have to be a particularly strong player to understand why they keep repeating in that position. Complaining about that they should have played on is just silly, then it's another thing to hope for more imbalances and excitement in following games.

 

Very good Points Fabelhaft.

If players think anand or Carlsen made a mistake in a move then post the analysis.  But complaining that a game ends in a draw (long or short) especially when it was basically a repetition of moves is just shows an ignorance of the game.

 

For example should Anand have played Qg4 instead of QxQ?  It seems so.  And such a discussion might be worthwhile/interesting.  

But just posting "BOO, the game is a draw! I hate draws" well its not really worth the bandwidth.  Sorry you hate draws.  But chess at the highest levels has allot of them.  Maybe watch some games between 1500 and lower players.    You will see very few draws.    

Ziryab
niceforkinmove wrote:
fabelhaft wrote:
Looking at the final move sequence today one doesn't have to be a particularly strong player to understand why they keep repeating in that position. Complaining about that they should have played on is just silly, then it's another thing to hope for more imbalances and excitement in following games.

 

Very good Points Fabelhaft.

If players think anand or Carlsen made a mistake in a move then post the analysis.  But complaining that a game ends in a draw (long or short) especially when it was basically a repetition of moves is just shows an ignorance of the game.

 

For example should Anand have played Qg4 instead of QxQ?  It seems so.  And such a discussion might be worthwhile/interesting.  

But just posting "BOO, the game is a draw! I hate draws" well its not really worth the bandwidth.  Sorry you hate draws.  But chess at the highest levels has allot of them.  Maybe watch some games between 1500 and lower players.    You will see very few draws.    

It appears clear that Carlsen's team had invested some time looking at Qg4, while Anand's team had not. Will they invest this time tomorrow? We might see this position again.

raulgq

There is the title and money at stake so they are playing safe without taking much risk, it is boring, but thats what takes to become world champion, i think it was tartakower that always wanted to win or lose and other great player said thats why he wasnt in the top, he didnt play safe. Fischer once told that chess was finished because of the draw its not entirely like that but exageration is a good way to say a point, maybe many draws and only one win could decide this. I am hoping to see more exciting games, here i have to wake up really early hehe.

NomadicKnight
Dutchday wrote:
NomadicKnight wrote:
Vo1d3mort wrote:

After the 2nd draw in the Anand-Carlsen match there seems to be a lot of anger and upset on forums, comments and even media articles because of the draws.

We as the viewing chess world are putting the players under strong pressure to force wins, give us blood, wild mating attacks and entertain us with stunning queen sacrifices. We put them under the weight of expectation to an extent that the players had to apologize for the draws in the press conferences (Carlsen did that after round 1, Anand after round 2).

 

I think this is going in the wrong direction, chess is not a bloodsport and a draw (not speaking of prearranged draws) is a sign of precise play and absence of heavier mistakes. It is not easy to draw a Carlsen and Anand for anyone of us and if they draw this doesn't have to be a game without the "fighting spirit". The draw should be seen as an respectable result for the black player and not a sign of a "wasted game". 

As a viewer I'd not be happy if a player, who has a slightly worse position, decides not to "pull the emergency brake" (as Carlsen called it) and force a draw if he can, but plays on - just to please the commentators and the bloodthirsty spectator crowd.

Very well put. I think the "anger and upset" is because people expected that bloodsport style of play like you mentioned. But if you look at heavyweight boxers, they don't go head to head, but instead try to finesse each other... going head to head with an opponent with such a powerful punch would be foolhardy unless you knew darn well you could deliver that knockout blow.

Actually, it really depends on the style of the pugilists. A heavy fighter does not have to win on points, if the match turns into a slugfest. Much lighter fighters are usually not natural knock outers, which means they can afford to make more techniques in the match. While this may look interesting, the lack of the impact can be a little off putting. I think we all know that ''winning on technique'' is not appreciated by all. Textbook example is Dr. Vladimir Klitschko, a technical fighter and a real heavy weight who uses his forehand a lot to control the distance. He scores his points and does not get hit often, but he never gets into a typical slugfest. This means many of his matches are just not that spectacular.  

We should consider Anand and Carlsen aren't natural heavy weights. The matches will be technical and the players will try to gather their points the best they can.  

I see your point Dutchday, but perhaps in your corner of the world you are luckier when it comes to watching a good fight. These days it seems like every time there is a heavyweight fight here in the U.S., it's a bunch of dancing, jabs and combos... very little in the way of pure brute force. To me the welterweight and featherweight fights that take place before the main event are more entertaining to watch. As for the subject at hand, the reason I bring all that up is because Anand and Carlsen's games thus far are more reminiscent of two heavyweight fighters trying to not get hit with that one knockout punch. They're dancing around the ring trying to hold one another at arm's length.

royalbishop

Are you joking about the draw deserves.......   what??

Say that when your next couple opponent(s) on chess.com keeps playing in a clearly lost position. And you ask(or want to) them to resign.

And they respond "I think i can get a draw"

I want you to then to remember this and stay quiet.

Ziryab
royalbishop wrote:

Are you joking about the draw deserves.......   what??

Say that when your next couple opponent(s) on chess.com keeps playing in a clearly lost position. And you ask(or want to) them to resign.

And they respond "I think i can get a draw"

I want you to then to remember this and stay quiet.

Chess is about truth. Short draws occur because grandmasters understand that there is nothing for which to play. Playing out a lost game is entirely different.

If someone wants to play a lost game, two strategies present themselves: underpromote pawns and mate the fool with minor pieces. Or, one could assemble a harem of queens and play with your opponent the way a cat plays with a mouse.

royalbishop
Ziryab wrote:
royalbishop wrote:

Are you joking about the draw deserves.......   what??

Say that when your next couple opponent(s) on chess.com keeps playing in a clearly lost position. And you ask(or want to) them to resign.

And they respond "I think i can get a draw"

I want you to then to remember this and stay quiet.

Chess is about truth. Short draws occur because grandmasters understand that there is nothing for which to play. Playing out a lost game is entirely different.

If someone wants to play a lost game, two strategies present themselves: underpromote pawns and mate the fool with minor pieces. Or, one could assemble a harem of queens and play with your opponent the way a cat plays with a mouse.

Bla bla bla..... save that reason for your dog when he is in the backyard in the cold baring and you tell him he can not come in.

When you have other activities you are in playing at chess.com you need that extra free time to focus on them. Your opponent says

 i can get a draw .... but we have to show sportsmanship. What we want to respond with is "Man i am crushing you what makes you think you have a chance at a draw?  Plus why are you wasting my time as even you clearly know it is a lost game.

I hope these games make chess sites re evalaute the draw rule. We just need the pressure from the players.

r_k_ting
vill0236 wrote:

Last year in the Anand-Gelfand match the first 2 games also ended in a draw before move 30, it is normal in match, no one wants to take chances in the first game espectially if it is a short 12-game-match, I think the old 24 games matches was better.

Everyone acknowledges that Anand-Gelfand was perhaps the lowest point in WCC history. Needing to make comparisons to that match is an indictment, not a vindication.

royalbishop
r_k_ting wrote:
vill0236 wrote:

Last year in the Anand-Gelfand match the first 2 games also ended in a draw before move 30, it is normal in match, no one wants to take chances in the first game espectially if it is a short 12-game-match, I think the old 24 games matches was better.

Everyone acknowledges that Anand-Gelfand was perhaps the lowest point in WCC history. Needing to make comparisons to that match is an indictment, not a vindication.

Do not say nobody.... Anand is the common factor here.

Anand is a cowardly player!  Only cowards like draws in big....

Correction on cowards love playing for draws in big games.