The truth about Dr. Frank Brady and Fischer

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RoobieRoo

What your impressions are have no meaning to anyone but you, they are certainly meaningless to me.  Why you think they should have any meaning beyond that which you seek to imbue them with I cannot say.  I have explained my position with reference in this thread, perhaps you may do better if instead of attempting to target the personality and make petty statements about the style of writing you offered something of substance yourself. Ironic all things considered, don't you think? 

Yes I finished the book and my statements remains solid.  Brady offers nothing more than some anecdotal evidence that would do well to grace the pages of any tabloid newspaper.  He has for example Laszlo Polgar terming Fischer a schizophrenic.  Last time I looked Laszlo Polgar was not a qualified physician and has no business giving out any kind of mental health diagnosis.  This is entirely typical of the type of content that Brady reports and we are expected to make some kind of informed decision regarding Robert James Fischer on its basis. Its nothing more than Dr. Brady the real housewife of New York writing a gossip column.

RoobieRoo
BettorOffSingle wrote:
 

Ask Sam Sloan about the Polgars LOL

Really? thats interesting, is there some history? truly I am unaware.

Ziryab
robbie_1969 wrote:

[snip]

Yes I finished the book and my statements remains solid. Brady offers nothing more than some anecdotal evidence that would do well to grace the pages of any tabloid newspaper.  ...

What was Fischer's IQ? How do you know?

The evidence that he had some sort of psychological disturbance is not only better supported within Brady's books, but is also evident from Fischer's public behaviors. His alleged IQ is based on one teacher's testimony--given to Brady in a personal interview. It's funny that Fischer's psychological state seems debatable, but everyone accepts the claims about his IQ. 

Ziryab
BettorOffSingle wrote:
robbie_1969 wrote:

Its nothing more than Dr. Brady the real housewife of New York writing a gossip column.

Ask Sam Sloan about the Polgars LOL

Would this Sloan be the same one that has the most intimate knowledge both of Fischer's sexual experiences and of Walter Browne's secret affair?

Darth_Algar
robbie_1969 wrote:

 

Yes I finished the book and my statements remains solid.  Brady offers nothing more than some anecdotal evidence that would do well to grace the pages of any tabloid newspaper.  He has for example Laszlo Polgar terming Fischer a schizophrenic.  Last time I looked Laszlo Polgar was not a qualified physician and has no business giving out any kind of mental health diagnosis.  This is entirely typical of the type of content that Brady reports and we are expected to make some kind of informed decision regarding Robert James Fischer on its basis. Its nothing more than Dr. Brady the real housewife of New York writing a gossip column.

Yeah, Laszlo Polgar is a psychologist, and while perhaps not legally qualified to diagnose mental illness he certainly has the knowledge and training to make an educated guess.

Darth_Algar
BettorOffSingle wrote:
Darth_Algar wrote:
BettorOffSingle wrote:

His classmate, Barbra Streisand, thought so highly of him she had a huge crush on him, and ate lunch with him every day.  How much time would she spend with you?

Yes, Barbara Streisand had a schoolgirl crush on him when they attended Erasmus Hall at the same time. That means nothing and certainly doesn't mean she thought highly of him as a person, particularly in adulthood. And Bobby, by his own words, did not seem to be aware of her during their school days, they hardly ate lunch together everyday (unless "ate lunch with him" means "ate lunch in the same cafeteria"). There's not really any indication from ether Bobby or Barbara that they knew each other on a personal level.

They were Schroeder, the piano, and Lucy then.  And no, she sat directly across from him while he was just into himself.  She liked him because he was brilliant, creative, and had a sense of purpose.  Barbra's stepson, Josh Brolin, married Diane Lane, my former classmate and cousin's ex-girlfriend, while I used to play at the Manhattan in the 1980s and knew guys ilke Jackie Beers who grew up with Fischer.  I'd say I'm pretty familiar with the topic.

I didn't notice Cynthia Nixon except for her really good grades when we were in school together, but she found me memorable enough to stop me on the street in 1982.

Chicks dig chessplayers.  What can I say?

p.s. -- Neil Diamond was at Erasmus along with them and Barbra didn't have a crush on him.

It's odd, for someone who claims to have such a chess history, and who is selling cheap e-books presuming to instruct others on the game of chess, why is it that there is not a single game played by you to be found anywhere? And as far as I can tell you've ignore any and all requests here to see some example of your playing. One might begin to suspect that you're a charlatan.

p.s. Neil Diamond is utterly irrelevant here, as is Barbara Streisand and her schoolgirl crush. As is Cynthia Nixon (whoever the hell that is).

TheRealGMBobbyFish
robbie_1969 wrote:

  Brady offers nothing more than some anecdotal evidence that would do well to grace the pages of any tabloid newspaper.  He has for example Laszlo Polgar terming Fischer a schizophrenic.  Last time I looked Laszlo Polgar was not a qualified physician and has no business giving out any kind of mental health diagnosis.

I would say Brady offers far more than 'some' anecdotal evidence.  What he has compiled is so far as I know the most comprehensive collection of interviews and firsthand accounts of the people who knew Fischer best.  So far as I know, not one person quoted had an axe to grind or any reason to lie.  Considering that the narrative across individual accounts, decades and continents are amazingly consistent in both his works and virtually everything published on Fischer I think Brady goes well beyond anecdotes.  The book is rather clear on the point that Laszlo Polgar was merely offering an opinion and not a diagnosis.  As for Dr Polgar's qualifications, he is a psychologist. 

Dr Polgar had ample opportunity to observe Fischer in his own home and based on his professional background I doubt he used the term lightly.  Diagnosis criteria of schizophrenia:

DSM-IV-TR: Diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia: A. Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated): (1) delusions (2) hallucinations (3) disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence (4) grossly disorganized or catatonic behaviour (5) negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia (poverty of speech), or avolition (lack of motivation) Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre.

I really don't know why you persist in deriding Brady.  Your hero was flawed and unfortunately not stable.  There is literally mountains of evidence to support everything Brady wrote.  When it comes to witnessing probable mental illness, much is in Fischer's own words.

Contrary to what you believe, you haven't exposed anything on Brady.  You promised a review.  I was hoping you would deliver.

RoobieRoo

You have produced nothing more than an opinion piece. Not a single substantiating fact concerning Fischers alleged descent into madness. Furthermore Its logically fallacious and nothing more than an ad hominem extraordinaire which once again fails to address the content but instead seeks to target the personality behind it and call into question the motives in a plastic and transparent attempt to discredit the author, neither very original nor very clever.  All that one needs to do is ask you for a medical diagnosis of Fischer and you are absolutely and utterly bereft because the only qualified physician that Brady actually mentions who examined Fischer concluded that he was perfectly sane.  

Dr Polgar as you refer to him is not a qualified psychiatrist and one wonders if he fell into a river and came up with a doctorate in his pocket. He is therefore unqualified to make any assertions regarding Fischers mental health.  Perhaps this type of quackery also passes for science in the United states? One would sincerely hope not.

I have exposed Brady as a real housewife of New York who has produced a book which amounts to nothing more than third hand accounts for the most part (we have already established that Fischer cast Brady off for misrepresenting him elsewhere in his (we wont use the term literature) earlier writings and certainly never knew Fischer near the end of his career or life) Now while this type of sensationalistic journalism might be taken seriously in the United States we in Europe expect higher standards from a historical account, especially ones which seek to portray someone as descending into madness.

The book is fine if you want to read stories about Fischer, it is certainly not to be taken seriously if you want to accurately assess Fischers state of mind, his motivations and perspectives. Dr. Brady is like Solzhenitsyn's gaurd who sits inside warming himself by a fire telling the prisoners outside to keep warm.

RoobieRoo
Ziryab wrote:
robbie_1969 wrote:

 

What was Fischer's IQ? How do you know?

Dr.Brady refuses to tell us how the figure for Fischers alledged IQ was derived or reveal its source.

RoobieRoo
Darth_Algar wrote:
he certainly has the knowledge and training to make an educated guess.

Would you attend a physician if he diagnosed you by guessing? No neither would I.

TheRealGMBobbyFish
robbie_1969 wrote:

You have produced nothing more than an opinion piece. Not a single substantiating fact concerning Fischers alleged descent into madness. Furthermore Its logically fallacious and nothing more than an ad hominem extraordinaire which once again fails to address the content but instead seeks to target the personality behind it and call into question the motives in a plastic and transparent attempt to discredit the author, neither very original nor very clever.  All that one needs to do is ask you for a medical diagnosis of Fischer and you are absolutely and utterly bereft because the only qualified physician that Brady actually mentions who examined Fischer concluded that he was perfectly sane.  

Dr Polgar as you refer to him is not a qualified psychiatrist and one wonders if he fell into a river and came up with a doctorate in his pocket. He is therefore unqualified to make any assertions regarding Fischers mental health.  Perhaps this type of quackery also passes for science in the United states? One would sincerely hope not.

I have exposed Brady as a real housewife of New York who has produced a book which amounts to nothing more than third hand accounts

Explain why I need to produce substantiated facts on Fischer's mental health?  Obviously if Brady's extensive work doesn't meet your standard of evidence, nothing I produce will either.

You have written nearly nothing of substance and when you do as in the case of Dr Polgar, you are discredited with ease.  This is not a personal attack.  Simply an observation.

Before you set out to discredit Dr Polgar you should actually have an understanding what a Psychologist is.  To use your level of evidence, can you produce anything to substantiate the falling-into-the-river Doctorate accusation?  You seem to be the only one hung up on a diagnosis.  It is well documented that Fischer distrusted doctors right up until his premature death.  That there is no clinical diagnosis is not a surprise to anyone.  Brady is clear on the point.

I will go a step further in revealing your lack of understanding of the topic at hand.  You repeatedly accuse Brady of using third hand accounts.  Someone with your understanding of the English language doesn't need reminding that third hand accounts are those which are received through two intermediaries.

In the literally hundreds of interviews conducted in this book with people who knew Fischer personally these would all be firsthand accounts.  Where they relay what Fischer told them, those would be second-hand accounts (i.e. if Fischer quoted Spassky to Benko and Benko then told Brady.)   Where sourced letters are written to or from Fischer those are also firsthand accounts.  Interviews conducted with Fischer would also be firsthand accounts whether conducted by Brady or not assuming there are transcripts or recordings.   I'm not going to say are no third-hand sources are used as I have not gone line by line through the hundreds of notes but I seriously doubt there are.

I maintain that Brady passes no judgment or diagnosis on Fischer.  What he does is present Fischer by Fischer and by those who knew him best.  This makes Fischer and chess in the 50's through 70's accessible to both the casual reader and is of considerabe value the studied chess historian.

If decades of personal interviews complete with notations passes for tabloid journalism then I am seriously impressed with Australian tabloids.

RoobieRoo
TheRealGMBobbyFish wrote:
 

If decades of personal interviews complete with notations passes for tabloid journalism then I am seriously impressed with Australian tabloids.

Please no more Dr. Brady and the real housewives of New York.  I have made my position clear and its tedious to have to repeat the same points again and again. You need not acquiesce to my perspective and of course are free to express your own opinions to the contrary.  

I am not Australian, I am merely flying their flag for beating England in the rugby world cup with a scintillating display of power and pace.

RoobieRoo
BettorOffSingle wrote:

I don't think Fischer's mental state matters one iota.  He wasn't a criminal, so err on the side of the First Amendment, or artists will fear free expression.

Barbra Streisand thought he was great.  That's good enough for me.

My objection was that the title of the book attempted to state that Fischer descended into madness.  The European version was entirely different and mentioned nothing about this and was in fact entitled, the spectacular rise and fall of Bobby Fischer.

The_Ghostess_Lola

(robbie_1969)....Dr.Brady intimates that Fischer descended into insanity....

Why do people always feel insanity is a descension ? I mean, if it made him happier and he didn't hurt anyone....and it's common knowledge that BF didn't.

Crazychessplaya

An ascension like Nirvana, then?

Ziryab
robbie_1969 wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
robbie_1969 wrote:

 

What was Fischer's IQ? How do you know?

Dr.Brady refuses to tell us how the figure for Fischers alledged IQ was derived or reveal its source.

I'll credit you with consistency. Brady does tell us his source, albeit not by name, and roughly describes the method. I don't find his claim credible.

IQ is suspect enough when it is measured by accepted tests administered in proper test conditions. We know enough from Brady's account to know that Fischer was not tested in this manner.

 

Can you derive an IQ score from SAT scores? For example, are all National Merit Finalists at least 140 IQ? The SAT may be a more useful test, but it is not an IQ test. Fischer's test scores that serve as the basis for his IQ estimate are not specifically named, but are from an age prior to when a student would take the SAT. 

Ziryab

That which you mistake for madness is but an overacuteness of the senses.

E.A. Poe

 
Much Madness is divinest Sense -
To a discerning Eye -
Much Sense - the starkest Madness -
’Tis the Majority
In this, as all, prevail -
Assent - and you are sane -
Demur - you’re straightway dangerous -
And handled with a Chain -

Emily Dickinson
 
The_Ghostess_Lola

Placing value on an IQ is pretty much a joke. I'd rather have a high EQ than any IQ.

BF lacked measurable chess creatvity. And his Emotional Quotient - measured by the stuff he used to say ?....was either an incredibly well-executed troll or he was basically EQ retarded.

VierKazen89

@

The_Ghostess_Lola So the "Game of the Century" from Bobby Fischer was not creative? It was and also very smart.Not even Kasparov could have produced such a game. At that age. 

TheRealGMBobbyFish
robbie_1969 wrote:
TheRealGMBobbyFish wrote:
 

If decades of personal interviews complete with notations passes for tabloid journalism then I am seriously impressed with Australian tabloids.

I have made my position clear and its tedious to have to repeat the same points again and again. You need not acquiesce to my perspective and of course are free to express your own opinions to the contrary.  

I am not Australian, I am merely flying their flag for beating England in the rugby world cup with a scintillating display of power and pace.

Indeed.