Why was this a draw by insufficient material?

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leoultimater

https://www.chess.com/live/game/1952180816

Can't a knight checkmate by means of a smothered mate? (Note this was a bullet game where my opponent ran out of time, don't judge my terrible play too harshly)

ilikewindmills
exactly
Strangemover

A little cheeky to have a grumble about this given the final position...

Spectator94

You should have been given a win indeed.

leoultimater
Strangemover wrote:

A little cheeky to have a grumble about this given the final position...

If I were black here, I would have still made this thread. My question here is how exactly do these insufficient material draws work? To the best of my knowledge, once your opponent's time runs out, you're allowed to play both sides of the game provided they are all legal moves until you arrive at a checkmate. Thus wouldn't this series be possible:



Daybreak57

 You ran out of time dude.  Normally you would just lose, but since your opponent didn't have enough mating material the game was drawn by insufficient material.

turk505

It can, but it's not forced, which I think is why chess.com doesn't recognize it. Although, according to FIDE, you're definitely right -- "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game."

Should have been a swindle worthy of Marshall, but oh well.

Spectator94
Daybreak57 wrote:

 You ran out of time dude.  Normally you would just lose, but since your opponent didn't have enough mating material the game was drawn by insufficient material.

Tbh a Queen, a Rook and a few pawns should classify as ''enough mating material'

Spectator94
turk505 wrote:

It can, but it's not forced, which I think is why chess.com doesn't recognize it. Although, according to FIDE, you're definitely right -- "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game."

Should have been a swindle worthy of Marshall, but oh well.

Your very first line is different from OTB play and your second line is correct. I have once been awarded the win in the following position, when Black ran out of time:

 

tal_morphy

well how you can send a smoothered mate if black have no enough material to surround his king??

Daybreak57

I'm sorry I figured you where black but you where white.  In theory, it's possible to do smothered mate with one horse if your opponent is trapped by his own pieces, but that is not the way it works dude if you only have one knight and no pawns it is drawn by insufficient material if your opponent runs out of time and you do not win.  It's never happened to me personally as I am not a person that plays more the clock than the board in bullet or blitz, but I have been messaged by people who thought they should have won when it was drawn by insufficient material.  I mean one guy personally had to tell me that the site was wrong and that he did win, and just had to let me know wink.png

tal_morphy

unless he promote pawns...but that become realy stupid...

game_designer
Spectator94 wrote:
Daybreak57 wrote:

 You ran out of time dude.  Normally you would just lose, but since your opponent didn't have enough mating material the game was drawn by insufficient material.

Tbh a Queen, a Rook and a few pawns should classify as ''enough mating material'

Black ran out of time and had lots of material

White only had one knight, insufficient material to mate in K + N versus K

So it is a draw in the rules

Same story if it was a white bishop instead of a white knight as K + B versus K is also not a forced win

Yes smothered mates are possible in that other guys example above, but that is not a practical example.

Strangemover

There's a ton of threads about this if you have a quick search from ppl with the same question. There is a difference between FIDE and USCF rules if I recall correctly which has caused some confusion.

game_designer
Spectator94 wrote:
turk505 wrote:

It can, but it's not forced, which I think is why chess.com doesn't recognize it. Although, according to FIDE, you're definitely right -- "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game."

Should have been a swindle worthy of Marshall, but oh well.

Your very first line is different from OTB play and your second line is correct. I have once been awarded the win in the following position, when Black ran out of time:
 

In theory this is a draw

Wrong coloured bishop, it does not control A8

Your opponent ran out of time

But you do have a PAWN

Which could promote if black played the wrong moves

K + B + P versus K is sufficient material

So you get the win on time in this example

Spectator94
Daybreak57 wrote:

I'm sorry I figured you where black but you where white.  In theory, it's possible to do smothered mate with one horse if your opponent is trapped by his own pieces, but that is not the way it works dude if you only have one knight and no pawns it is drawn by insufficient material if your opponent runs out of time and you do not win.  It's never happened to me personally as I am not a person that plays more the clock than the board in bullet or blitz, but I have been messaged by people who thought they should have won when it was drawn by insufficient material.  I mean one guy personally had to tell me that the site was wrong and that he did win, and just had to let me know

Well chess.com seems to differ from the FIDE rules on this one. Not judging, just noticing.

leoultimater
Daybreak57 wrote:

 You ran out of time dude.  Normally you would just lose, but since your opponent didn't have enough mating material the game was drawn by insufficient material.

My opponent was the one that ran out of time. I made this thread because I'm interested in learning about the logic involved in deciding whether the position is drawn or not as a valid series of moves exists which leads to a checkmate.

leoultimater
Daybreak57 wrote:

I'm sorry I figured you where black but you where white.  In theory, it's possible to do smothered mate with one horse if your opponent is trapped by his own pieces, but that is not the way it works dude if you only have one knight and no pawns it is drawn by insufficient material if your opponent runs out of time and you do not win.  It's never happened to me personally as I am not a person that plays more the clock than the board in bullet or blitz, but I have been messaged by people who thought they should have won when it was drawn by insufficient material.  I mean one guy personally had to tell me that the site was wrong and that he did win, and just had to let me know

Why isn't it the way it works then?

turk505
Spectator94 wrote:
Well chess.com seems to differ from the FIDE rules on this one. Not judging, just noticing.

You might say you were just spectating (I'll leave now)

 

If you were awarded a win in that position, then I have no idea why chess.com gave OP an "insufficient material." Both are theoretically "not losing" but winnable by worst play from black

game_designer
leoultimater wrote:
Daybreak57 wrote:

 You ran out of time dude.  Normally you would just lose, but since your opponent didn't have enough mating material the game was drawn by insufficient material.

My opponent was the one that ran out of time. I made this thread because I'm interested in learning about the logic involved in deciding whether the position is drawn or not as a valid series of moves exists which leads to a checkmate.

The rule does not consider the position when time runs out.

You were playing white and only had King + Knight

Forgetting about the position -- K + N versus K is a draw due to insufficient material

Just think K + N versus K on an empty board, forced mate is impossible

Then

Black had lots of material, but he ran out of time

So it is a draw because you only had K + N

Would be same if you only had K + B

If you had only ONE pawn, you would win on time, a pawn can promote.

In an OTB game in a tournament there is another twist

Say you sacrificed EVERYTHING to give checkmate

Say you only had K + N and your next move Nf7+ is checkmate and the other player can do nothing to stop it

So he sits there with his clock running waiting for time to run out so it will be a draw

No, you go find an arbiter, you complain, he will give you the win