'I Don't Trust Him'—Carlsen Opens Up On Niemann Controversy With Joe Rogan

World number-one GM Magnus Carlsen made an appearance on The Joe Rogan Experience where he openly addressed the infamous controversy with GM Hans Niemann for the first time.

The controversial Joe Rogan, a comedian, UFC commentator, and former TV host, has one of the world's biggest and most influential podcasts. He boasts more than 19 million subscribers on his show, and former guests include Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bernie Sanders and Edward Snowden. This week one of the greatest chess players of all-time joined the list.

Carlsen rushed from his hotel in Austin, Texas to Rogan's studio on Wednesday, shortly after securing his place in the Grand Final of the 2025 Chessable Masters. The episode was released on Spotify and YouTube on Thursday:

It was a varied and entertaining conversation over two hours and 17 minutes with Rogan, together with U.S. comedian Tony Hinchcliffe, discussing things like cheating, AI, video games, golf, psychology, Carlsen's evolution as a player, and Freestyle Chess.

One of the most noteworthy topics was the infamous scandal that followed after his loss to Niemann at the 2022 Sinquefield Cup. The Norwegian withdrew from the event and later suggested the U.S. teenager had cheated but did not provide evidence. Niemann has denied all allegations of cheating but admitted to cheating in casual online games as a teenager.

The Chess.com investigation concluded that he had "likely" cheated in over 100 online games. No proof emerged linking him to cheating over the board. The report, along with the allegations, led to a $100 million defamation lawsuit against Carlsen, Chess.com and other parties. A U.S. judge eventually dismissed the lawsuit, and the legal dispute was privately settled in 2023. 

Carlsen has been reluctant to speak about the controversy but noted that his side of the story is shared in more detail in a Netflix documentary that is rumored to be released in April. (Chess.com's CCO IM Danny Rensch, who was a part of the lawsuit by Niemann, will also cover that in more detail in his upcoming memoir Dark Squares.)

However, now the world number-one has opened up about what made him suspicious in the first place. "There was a combination of things, based on the chess level that I thought that he had, and that I had seen from his games. Both by playing against him and analyzing a bit with him and by looking at his games. There were a lot of stories back then," Carlsen said.

He added: "There were a lot of factors that made me very, very suspicious. I think ever since then he has become better. But there's still something off, both then and now."

There were a lot of factors that made me very, very suspicious. I think ever since then he has become better. But there's still something off, both then and now.

He went on to admit that chess engines have made grandmasters increasingly paranoid about cheating, noting how many open tournaments have lacked sufficient security. 

I am not ruling out that chess players are becoming more and more paranoid. We do have chess engines that play perfect chess. Anybody with their phone... I think Elon [Musk] tweeted to Garry [Kasparov] that 'My phone can beat you at chess!' which is true!

Reflecting on Niemann’s playing style, Carlsen explained why it made him suspicious:

With him, specifically...I don't know. He doesn't seem to be playing....or he didn't at that point seem to be playing with a particular style. It seemed that he either played, kinda eh, or he more or less played any position very well in certain games. He could just switch from tactical to positional play very easily.

He could just switch from tactical to positional play very easily.

"It didn't smell good to me. It still doesn't, but to some extent, he had his lawsuit and we have all kind of moved a little bit on. I don't trust him, and a lot of top players still don't trust him. He certainly doesn't trust me or Chess.com, Hikaru, or whoever he felt wronged by."

It didn't smell good to me. It still doesn't, but to some extent, he had his lawsuit and we have all kind of moved a little bit on.

Rogan asked how someone could have possibly cheated in a top-level tournament.

"An invisible ear piece that people use for exams and so on." "But he would have to have a partner?" Rogan followed up.

"Yeah, he would. That would not have been detected by the security system that they used at that tournament. They amped up the security after the whole thing happened. They started checking our ears."

Carlsen pointed to last year's Speed Chess Championship Final in Paris, where he faced Niemann in the Semifinals under tighter security measures. "He didn't play nearly at the same level there."

The cheating issue was discussed more broadly during the podcast, with Carlsen noting Chess.com's newest policy on public closures.

"There have been so many cases of people who are acting suspiciously, who are having suspicious results based on the data. But if you are not cheating in a dumb way, there is really not going to be a smoking gun. Without that smoking gun, it's hard to catch people."

The 34-year-old also spoke about how chess is evolving in order to counter the dominance of computer preparation.

"We are trying to actually make chess a bit more difficult for a classical format of chess. Now computers are so strong. Preparation has gone so far that the thought of sitting down at the board and just thinking on your own from the very get-go is not there anymore."

Many chess fans will already be aware of Freestyle Chess, also known as Chess960 or Fischer-Random, in which the starting position is shuffled beforehand. This year Carlsen and other top players are involved with the 2025 Freestyle Chess Grand Slam Tour, with six tournaments hosted across four continents throughout the year. The first one was held in Germany in February.

"You basically start with a new map every single game. For the traditionalists, that's not the same game so there are some people who don't like it. But for the professionals, it's a chance to use their skills," Carlsen said.

There are some people who don't like it, but for the professionals it's a chance to use their skills.

Carlsen, who has now been top of the world rankings for 15 years, acknowledged that while his knowledge of chess has increased, his raw cognitive speed has slightly declined. He pointed to first half of 2019 as the peak, saying. “That was when I was most like a young Kasparov—very dynamic.”

He also reflected on his relentless playing style in 2013 and 2014, where he reached his highest classical rating of 2882 for the first time: "I was in the best shape of my life. I was just a relentless beast at the board, grinding down my opponents in very long endgames. Never giving them any respite whatsoever."

I was just a relentless beast at the board, grinding down my opponents in very long endgames. Never giving them any respite whatsoever.

“Knowledge-wise, it was far from the best version of me, but the average level of my game was definitely higher then, as I rarely played a bad game. I was always on, with so much willpower and energy," he added.

Other topics from the podcast will be covered in a separate Chess.com story.